Death Stranding sure was a 10/10 game of the year for allowing kojima creative freedom. Gotta reel people in some times can't always let them off the leash.
You laugh but I loved it to death. Absolutely a 9/10 at least. Kojima doesn't need to make games with mass appeal. Mass appeal shouldn't be the objective of a game. It should be to be fun for its audience. Not every audience.
And there are plenty of people in for an apocalypse delivery simulator with realistic walking and a bizarre, in-depth backstory told through strange events with little to no exposition. Making games that not %100 of gamers will be on-board with shouldn't be a bad thing.
There should be niches. Imagine objecting to a game because of, not how good it is at what it does, but the genre in general. That's the complaint most people have. That it's a game about navigating terrain to deliver stuff.
So exciting, Sony should just focus on allowing creative minds to work on this animated world they have. JUST LET THE CREATIVES DO THEIR THING, NO SONY DONT YOU TOUCH THAT SCRIPT NOW!
yeah, they're not going to, not until it stops making them money.
The only reason many people went to see Morbius was because Sony advertised it as a marvel movie which technically is not a lie, but is definitely not the same as a MCU movie. But most people don't know that.
The rest were masochists, of course.
If I had to guess, Sony probably asked for Vulture in their Spiderverse in exchange for the MCU being able to use Venom and symbiotes (hence the post credits scene of No Way Home and MAYBE Gorr's sword from Thor: Love and Thunder being created by the symbiote god like in the comics). It wouldn't be the first time Marvel had to make a deal like this: they originally weren't allowed to use Ego the Living Planet for GOTG V2 either, because he was one of the Marvel characters that Fox had the movie rights to, but Fox allowed them to use Ego in that movie in exchange for them allowing Negasonic Teenage Warhead's powers to be different from the comics in Deadpool (yes, apparently they needed Marvel Studios' permission for that).
...not that it makes the Vulture situation much better. NTW still isn't the most popular movie character in the world, but the writers of Deadpool still made her very fun and her different powers are part of the reason, so the change benefitted her character and the movie. Vulture was taken out of the entire context of his character, separated from every motivation he had in Homecoming and magically given a new Vulture suit he shouldn't be able to build outside of the MCU so that he can "do some good" or whatever in a universe he knows nothing about. It doesn't just feel unoriginal, but also stupid and forced.
Arenāt we supposed to assume the Vulture at the end of Morbius isnāt the one from Homecomin? He had a change of heart in the end of Homecomin and the one at the end of Morbius is clearly a bad guy. Could just be from a different multiverse right?
Yes that is a the product of incursion.
But Incursion means a Charactor from one universe sending their consciousness/i guess going there, and staying for too long.
It's like a Charactor is a single magnet and they are attracted to their respective universe.
But if the Charactor tries to go to the other magnet(other universe) it attracts it's own magnet (unvierse) with it.
So when two universe collide that destroys one of them. (The magnet theory is my own btw, i made it to simplify the nature of it)
This might happen in secret wars since tobey and andrew are rumored to make an [appearance](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/comments/rgkzai/mytimetoshinehello_marvel_wants_tobey_and_andrew/) in secret wars.
They're Indian (presumably) give them a break
By that I mean judging on what subs they are active in they are probably Indian so English might not be their preferred language.
I know, but it also implies that Indians are not good at English. Which would be true for the some of Indian population, but not for people here on reddit. The chunk of population that's here has definitely has had access to better education so we're good at this secondary language, so your sentiment kind of comes off as an attack to some people. Don't worry, take it from an Indian - we all here aren't that bad at English, & I don't hold anything against you because your heart's in the right place here.
In MoM they said only one universe is destroyed. Itās why Reed Richards and Black Captain Marvels universe didnāt blow up too when their Strange caused an incursion. Only one of the universes implodes apparently. And based on what we saw itās the universe where the person doesnāt belong.
Both are destroyed, unless one manages to prematurely destroy the other. This is how you get multiversal wars, with even *heroes* fighting to destroy other worlds.
It's roughly the same as the comics.
"It's either them, or us, and if nobody fights to destroy the other, then we *all* die."
I think what i Can say is that they are both different beings.
America doesn't exist in any other universe, she is special and unique as she said "She doesn't dream" which would mean that no alternate version of her exists.
Venom for example is different because he has vast knowledge of the multiverse maybe that has to do something with it( like it was said by himself at the post credit scene if let there be carnage)
My interpretation is that since 616 doesn't have it's own version of America or Venom (that's why he came from other universe) incursion wouldn't happen.
From what I understood it was more specifically just the dreamwalking that causes incursions. I think of it like your consciousness is still tethered to your body but you're now also tethering it to the body of an alternate self, so it has a kind of rubber band effect causing the two universes to be pulled together.
Imo its something difficult to be too certain about since I'm not sure if the 838 universe was aware of other methods of traveling between universes besides dreamwalking (particularly not being aware of America Chavez till recently), so it makes sense to me that they weren't more specific.
No, they literally crash into each other. The only time they combined was when Doctor Doom, Doctor Strange and Molecule Man worked to pull the remains of the Multiverse together and create Battle World in Secret Wars (2015).
The spell was botched, who knows what implications a botched spell that travels between the known and unknown has? Literally anything could've happened, we are lucky.
Actually no. The *Venom* movies were canonized by the NWH mid-credits scene. *Morbius* was made by Sony and has not been acknowledged by Marvel Studios or any MCU media. So at the moment it isnāt canon.
Tom Hardy's Venom was seen in the after-credit scene for NWH, and the Topher Grace version was directly mentioned by Tobey when they were discussing their villains.
We could be dead. He could've accidently summoned Surtur from another dimension and he would've thought it was his mission to destroy New Asgard on Earth or something. Any number of worse things could've happened.
Sony could so easily do a Spider-Man 2099 film series and not worry about the MCU or Tom Holland but their executives seem like some of the dumbest people alive.
He left at the end of the scene. Toomes stayed. I'm not sure if the drip was enough to cause an Incursion here.
At least that place is taking Morbius with it.
Donāt incursions destroy both the universe youāre from and the one you traveled to? So if Vulture is the cause of an incursion in the Sonyverse it would also destroy the MCU.
Why the fuck are you getting downvoted? Morbius is the best movie in the entire Morbius trilogy. In fact, if we were to make a contest out of the best movies named "Morbius", Morbius would win. IGN gave it a 999% and so did RottenTomatoes. Such a shame that people can't appreciate art because they're blinded by stupidity.
help jared leto is in my house what do i do
My biggest issue with it is that after M.o.M., Mysterio in far from home guessed the universe's number correctly by accident and that seems like too much of a coincidence for us to know he was lying. And if I'm not mistaken, wasn't the MCU's universe called 99991 or something like that before? Is it a retcon?
From what I understand, when you look across the entire canon multiverse, it still is 99991. (I know itās DC, but) In The Flash season 2 when they explained the multiverse, Earth-2 Wells said that from his point of view, his earth was Earth-1. So itās pretty much from the perspective of where you are in the multiverse. 99991 is so far away from 616 that the characters mustāve named both 616 based on how much of the multiverse they know. Plus, from a writing perspective, 616 is the number of the established main universe. So having those universes so far away from each other to the point where theyāre both called 616 makes it easier to write about the multiverse without having the movies and comicsā ranges of the multiverse overlap.
TL;DR, itās still technically 99991, but theyāre both called 616 since itās the number of the established main universe.
The only sources on the 616 numbering are Eric Selvig, the TVA, Mysterio and alternate universe Christine. Eric was crazy at the time, the TVA is full of lies, Mysterio is also full of lies, and Christine just made her own numbering system. So far, there's no 100% accurate confirmation of Earth-199999 being Earth-616, but fans are just referring to it as such because, as you said, it just means "main universe". Even though there's already an Earth-616.
Here's the explanation:
There's a comic book multiverse, and there's a film multiverse. They're two separate *multiverses*, each with infinite universes.
In the comic book multiverse, the main comic universe is universe 616.
In the film multiverse, the MCU is universe 616.
There's some minor overlap between both multiverses in some forms of media (some animated shows are references in the comic multiverse, and some are references in the filmic multiverse) but for the most part they're separate and the numbering doesn't conflict. When it *does* conflict-- such as when a comic book about an MCU movie is published, thus making it leak into the comic 616 universe-- the universe in question is re-numbered from the point of view of each universe (thus when such overlaps occur, which is rare, the MCU is referred to with the other number.)
The film multiverse consists of all Marvel movies since *Red Sonja* and *Howard the Duck.* It may also include live-action Marvel TV shows like the original *Spider-Man* and *The Incredible Hulk* but this is one area where there's some overlap (we see original TV Spider-Man in 616's Spider-Verse event, for example.)
The comic multiverse includes every print version of every Marvel character, ever, going back to *Marvel Comics #1.* It also includes some versions of the characters in animation, some versions in live-action (overlap with film multiverse here) and some odds and ends, like the D.C. comics primary universe which is actually another whole universe within the Marvel Multiverse (and the same goes for Marvel's 616 in the D.C. Multiverse, but this all gets very confusion with all their crossover events.)
TL;DR - There are two **multi**verses, comic and film, and the "main" universe in each multiverse is referred to as 616.
Edit: To address the Mysterio thing... We've established that dreaming is seeing through a version of yourself in another universe. We can guess, then, that MCU/616 Quentin Beck dreamed up the Mysterio "character" by seeing a version of himself in another universe, and that in that universe they were aware of the Multiverse and referred to the MCU as "616", leading to him repeating it to Peter when he was playing as the "dream version" of himself, the other-universe Mysterio.
In the movie, incursions only occurred when someone uses the darkhold to dreamwalk
using their variant in another universe
So, the sony universes are safe... (probably)
We're probably past this on this post but just in case, slight spoilers for MoM ahead:
The actions of the illuminati would imply otherwise as their main concern in the movie was Strange, who arrived in that universe due to America's powers, not due to the darkhold. He even tells them that Wanda is using the darkhold and they still dismiss it in favour of dealing with him first. Since the illuminati is composed of some of the universe's smartest, most powerful people I'd be willing to say that any multiversal travel puts both universe's in danger, not just that which uses the darkhold.
It seems to me that traveling via the darkhold is actually safer. It doesnāt move any āforeignā matter into the target universe, just a personās mind (which is little more than what happens naturally in dreams) and apparently has inherent time limits to how long you can dreamwalk.
We didnāt get much info on how Dr Strange 838 caused an incursion, I donāt think the Illuminati even knew much about the āhowā, so itās entirely possible that he was generally dreamwalking around just fine, but then decided to try something more with the universe he destroyed.
As you point out, the Illuminati were more scared about the fact the Strange 616 showed up via an unknown mechanism. They were probably specifically afraid that Strange 616 had recreated the method Strange 838 had used that destroyed a universe.
while that could be possible, I would counter with the Strange from the universe that actually experienced an incursion. The third eye and just his whole story in general would seem to imply that it was his use of the darkhold that destroyed his universe. I suppose it was never confirmed so this is also just speculation but it seemed heavily implied that the darkhold was just as dangerous as any other form of universe hopping
**Spoiler**
They, "the world's smartest people", also thought they could *handle* the Scarlet Witch, and we all saw how *that* turned out.
Speaking of, I'm surprised more people aren't upset at how Reed Richards, the smartest man, went out like a total chump.
tbf to them, they had no way of knowing how much of a threat Wanda could be. Within their universe, Wanda was extremely docile and likely never awakened that kind of power, meanwhile their Strange was extremely dangerous. So based on their experience it made the most sense to treat Strange as the most threatening of the two, and simply deal with Wanda later. They just got unlucky in that the particular Strange and Wanda they were dealing with were extremely different from their own. Additionally I wouldn't say Reed Richards was treated as a chump so much as he was used to show just how powerful and scary Wanda was. We the audience knew how powerful all those characters were, so allowing them to try and take on Wanda and lose miserably showed just how powerful The Scarlet Witch truly was without having to kill off established characters or set up any of their backstories. Additionally, this is almost certainly not the last we've seen if ANY of those characters with the multiverse to play with, so the only real effect was allowing the audience to understand that Wanda was an extremely powerful threat and was not to be underestimated.
>Speaking of, I'm surprised more people aren't upset at how Reed Richards, the smartest man, went out like a total chump.
No one is upset because how of fucking badass Wanda was when she killed him.
Reed never stood a chance. It was brutal, graphic, and 100% authentic to how that fight would actually go down.
> Speaking of, Iām surprised more people arenāt upset at how Reed Richards, the smartest man, went out like a total chump.
Blackboltās death was crazy enough that Reed sort of gets glossed over.
Well again, they didn't really know anything about this other Wanda from another universe
His reveal of Black Bolt's power seemed more like a threat or warning, it was them being "reasonable"
...just so happened that they happened to be dealing with a very powerful reality bender
Yeah that's what I was thinking too. I thought they said it was the repeated dreamwalking that caused the incursions. So America's dimension hopping would be safe also.
So, the Illuminati captured Strange for fearing he might cause an incursion even though he did not have the darkhold, but ignored Wanda who was currently dream walking in their universe?
It's not just the darkhold, it's someone from outside of your universe doing something major that affects the timeline hence why the Illuminati apprehended Strange when he arrived.
Dreamwalking is just the easiest/most common way of traversing the multiverse since there's a darkhold in every universe but only one person is known to actually be able to travel the multiverse with their own power and not dreamwalking.
That's what I thought at first until 616-Strange and Illuminati Christine discuss going to each other's universes would lead to an incursion even though the Darkhold had been destroyed and they wouldn't be traveling via Dreamwalking.
I was kinda stoned so I may be wrong in this, but iirc the sky just kinda does the NWH Doctor Strange spell effect, then he's in a random ass cell with all his MCU memories and the news is like "yo what the fuck, when did this guy appear in jail and who is he?"
incursions arenāt that easily caused. in the movie they only happened when someone was using the Darkhold/dream-walking. otherwise America (and her parents!) would have caused a LOT of incursions.
edit: also, part of the venom symbiote is still in the mcu 616 universeā¦
An incursion is caused by one universe adversely impacting another universe's timeline. How long it takes an incursion to happen varies, but it's completely possible that everything you've mentioned causes an incursion. It's also possible that America's original universe was already destroyed by an incursion.
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Glossary:Incursion
It's not, but it's safe to assume that the Darkholds are not the difference maker, given that all Darkholds are now destroyed, and I'm sure they'll continue the incursions storylines. Absent of in-universe explanations, the comic explanations are the best we have to work off.
wait it's that easy to cause Incursion? At least break space time continuum or something? overstay a universe? that's BS. Like a character level of Strange can cause it make sense because the amount of magic he can do. But just staying? that's writing themselves into a corner
Like they did have a Watcher to give Black Widow a ride to another universe ?? That's 180 turn for a Watcher whose job is only to watch but now he cause an Incursion
No, incursions are caused when a character from one universe severely alters events in another universe. spoilers for MOM follow >!like how wanda dreamwalked and killed the 838 illuminati!<
that's not convincing at all. The comic Incursion is like a result of domino effect related to time travel shenanigan which broke space time continuum and universes etc. The movie doesn't have to follow exactly like the comic but as you said, she only killed a bunch of people which shouldn't result in incursion.
>!she didn't just kill any bunch of people, she killed Captain Marvel, professor X, Captain Carter, and Reed fucking Richards. That's a huge deal in that universe. Plus we've seen that dream walking in general is enough to start an incursion with Doctor Strange of Earth 838.!<
The illuminati didnāt scare of Wanda because she could dreamwalk. They only scare of Dr. Strange because what this man can do with his ability. What uār saying is like going into a house and kill the person inside it, suddenly the neighborās house fall on top of that house. It doesnāt matter who died in the house, itās much bigger than that for a house to fall on top of another.
Is this logic true tho? I thought only in Dream Walk form can wreck havoc to the other universe. Chavez in MOM litterally travelled 74 different universes already and yet no Incursion occured.
It doesn't have anything to do with the Darkhold. It has to do with one universe having massive impacts on the timeline of another. Apparently, in the comics it's part of America's powers that she doesn't cause incursions, but it's possible the MCU doesn't use that, and we learn that she's caused and/or is continuously causing incursions.
No it doesn't. Because her universe is outside the multiverse, these rules don't apply to her. The movie doesn't explain it but her home is called the utopian parallel and is outside the multiverse, so she can travel and stay wherever she wants to.
You said it yourself the movie doesn't explain it, so that explanation can't be used to defend it. I shouldn't have to open a single comic to understand a movie in a completely different continuity.
Besides, that is still too much of a risk to take and is huge hit on every character in this garbage movie.
The problem isn't two copies of same people/thing existing at once in the same universe. The problem is matter not native to a universe existing in it at all. Doesn't matter if she's the only one (which is nonsense and completely impossible by Loki's dumbass and contradictory rules) she is only native to one universe and existing in 616 should cause a collision.
I just finished watching Morbius few hours ago and oh God, best decision in my life. Morbius is one of the best movie ever made. The plot, the dialogue, the vfx, sfx, connection and continuity to the MCU, everything is * chef kiss * . Hopw they'll make Morbius 2
Well if you heard what they said in multiverse of madness staying to long in another universe would make them 2 universes to be destroyed. So technically that would destroy the Sony universe and the Disney universe
I loved it more when No Way Home destroyed several things raised in the MCU eos if it was fun, can't they put aside their fanaticism for a brand and enjoy all the adaptations equally? as if the MCU did such a great job with their characters criticize Morbius but applaud Taika Waitit's horrible Thor
It seemed that the incursions happen via dream walking, at least how itās been explained. Itās theorized that if another full body person staying in a different universe can cause an incursion but itās not fully confirmed
I thought it was partially because of the dark hold. Like, America it someone with her can do it all they want without an incursion happening. That was my take anyway.
Right. Maybe it's only her actually. I just remembered she's supposed to be the only one of her across the entirety of the multiverse, so she can hop between them all she wants because there isn't a version of her in whatever universe she ends up in, but maybe it is still an issue if she has people with her. Idk though. I ultimately think her powers circumvent incursions, but idk. Does the movie explain all this and I'm just dumb? or is that why we're having this discussion in the first place? I feel like me being dumb is gonna be the answer regardless lol.
Yeah, but then again Sonys Spider-Man game is completely destroyed Marvels entire Avengers game hahaha.
Marvel hasnāt got shit on Sony in the gaming world. Untouchable.
Kevin Feige to SONY: *"I offered you friendship. And you spat in my face."*
Funny enough I was just listening to an article on this and apparently someone who suggested the deal to Sony early on had a sandwich thrown at them.
That was Kevin Feige
How do you listen to articles
Open your nose
https://media.tenor.com/images/fa3143e89d76490bdf83835cbd3d9fed/tenor.gif
Many articles have audio versions now.
It was on NPRās āHow I Built Thisā
"The future is now, old man."
I just watched that episode while introducing the show to my husband. He had no idea thatās where the meme came from
It was Feige and it was by Amy Pascal who every time I see her interviews and such comes off like an absolute lunatic.
She cried when he politely told her that the amazing spider man 3 script just wouldn't work
Technically Sony destroyed their own universe. They are the one that take Vulture there.
>Technically Sony destroyed their own universe. "I will not die a monster!"
They gave Bad Bunny creative controlā¦ lol
It's gonna sell muertillion tickets
~~venomillion~~ ~~morbillion~~ MUERTILLION
Morbius is too powerful though, he will simply morb himself into existence in 616.
It's
Morbin time?
morbin time
You mean He Is not Venom? Just kidding Dr. Michael morbius! Damn I hated seeing that in trailers lol
Pilates helps
Man that shit confused the hell out of me. Do your own thing Sony, you have infinite options, stand on your own 2 feet
They'll probably fuck that up too, only reason spider verse was good is because Sony backed off and didn't interfere.
Thats why sony published games are great too they allow so much freedom after they choose to fund a game. Freedom to create sells good shit
To be fair, it is a different branch of Sony. Movies seem to have more handholding by studios from what I've seen.
Death Stranding sure was a 10/10 game of the year for allowing kojima creative freedom. Gotta reel people in some times can't always let them off the leash.
You laugh but I loved it to death. Absolutely a 9/10 at least. Kojima doesn't need to make games with mass appeal. Mass appeal shouldn't be the objective of a game. It should be to be fun for its audience. Not every audience. And there are plenty of people in for an apocalypse delivery simulator with realistic walking and a bizarre, in-depth backstory told through strange events with little to no exposition. Making games that not %100 of gamers will be on-board with shouldn't be a bad thing. There should be niches. Imagine objecting to a game because of, not how good it is at what it does, but the genre in general. That's the complaint most people have. That it's a game about navigating terrain to deliver stuff.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
So exciting, Sony should just focus on allowing creative minds to work on this animated world they have. JUST LET THE CREATIVES DO THEIR THING, NO SONY DONT YOU TOUCH THAT SCRIPT NOW!
Which one?
yeah, they're not going to, not until it stops making them money. The only reason many people went to see Morbius was because Sony advertised it as a marvel movie which technically is not a lie, but is definitely not the same as a MCU movie. But most people don't know that. The rest were masochists, of course.
When Mobius activated his Time-Morb Bomb I knew this movie was different. >!I didnāt see the movie!<
Let's do the Time-Morb again!
Itās morbin-time
I still don't know if 'it's Morbin-time' is a joke or not. It sounds just stupid enough to be something that would be in the movie.
I donāt really know, I didnāt bother to see the movie
If it's not in the actual movie, then it has no redeeming merits.
We are venom.
Morb money, Morb problems.
Yo I still canāt believe he morbed all over those guys, truly epic
bro that scene alone is worth the 100 morbillion dollars it earned
Yeah and they advertised it as āfrom the people behind NWHā etcā¦
If I had to guess, Sony probably asked for Vulture in their Spiderverse in exchange for the MCU being able to use Venom and symbiotes (hence the post credits scene of No Way Home and MAYBE Gorr's sword from Thor: Love and Thunder being created by the symbiote god like in the comics). It wouldn't be the first time Marvel had to make a deal like this: they originally weren't allowed to use Ego the Living Planet for GOTG V2 either, because he was one of the Marvel characters that Fox had the movie rights to, but Fox allowed them to use Ego in that movie in exchange for them allowing Negasonic Teenage Warhead's powers to be different from the comics in Deadpool (yes, apparently they needed Marvel Studios' permission for that). ...not that it makes the Vulture situation much better. NTW still isn't the most popular movie character in the world, but the writers of Deadpool still made her very fun and her different powers are part of the reason, so the change benefitted her character and the movie. Vulture was taken out of the entire context of his character, separated from every motivation he had in Homecoming and magically given a new Vulture suit he shouldn't be able to build outside of the MCU so that he can "do some good" or whatever in a universe he knows nothing about. It doesn't just feel unoriginal, but also stupid and forced.
Arenāt we supposed to assume the Vulture at the end of Morbius isnāt the one from Homecomin? He had a change of heart in the end of Homecomin and the one at the end of Morbius is clearly a bad guy. Could just be from a different multiverse right?
They did Morbius .
Donāt the worlds combine, and that is what causes the destruction?
Yes that is a the product of incursion. But Incursion means a Charactor from one universe sending their consciousness/i guess going there, and staying for too long. It's like a Charactor is a single magnet and they are attracted to their respective universe. But if the Charactor tries to go to the other magnet(other universe) it attracts it's own magnet (unvierse) with it. So when two universe collide that destroys one of them. (The magnet theory is my own btw, i made it to simplify the nature of it)
Bruhhh imagine tom Holland having to fight against Maguire and Garfield spider-man
This might happen in secret wars since tobey and andrew are rumored to make an [appearance](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/comments/rgkzai/mytimetoshinehello_marvel_wants_tobey_and_andrew/) in secret wars.
Wait, what the fuck? We've gotten confirmation they're adapting Secret Wars? Could you link?
https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/comments/p6deab/jim_shooter_writer_of_original_secret_wars_says/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/comments/rgkzai/mytimetoshinehello_marvel_wants_tobey_and_andrew/
Holy shit
Tom's universe has a wider range of BiG supes than other ones (known ones) so it's easily Tom's win tbh
Charector
They're Indian (presumably) give them a break By that I mean judging on what subs they are active in they are probably Indian so English might not be their preferred language.
Indians spell better than the rest of us.
This was in support but it does come off as offensive š
I'm so confused? Help me. I just wanted to be nice.
I know, but it also implies that Indians are not good at English. Which would be true for the some of Indian population, but not for people here on reddit. The chunk of population that's here has definitely has had access to better education so we're good at this secondary language, so your sentiment kind of comes off as an attack to some people. Don't worry, take it from an Indian - we all here aren't that bad at English, & I don't hold anything against you because your heart's in the right place here.
Thank you
Thatās what I figured, so technically KF destroys both Sonyverse and MCU.
Well yes, but i think that's unlikely that MCU -616 will be destroyed
Not necessarily - universe 838 in MoM had an incursion with another universe, but it was only the other universe that got destroyed
In MoM they said only one universe is destroyed. Itās why Reed Richards and Black Captain Marvels universe didnāt blow up too when their Strange caused an incursion. Only one of the universes implodes apparently. And based on what we saw itās the universe where the person doesnāt belong.
They say that eventually one- or both- can be destroyed. It's flexible enough that incursion might not happen for decades.
Both are destroyed, unless one manages to prematurely destroy the other. This is how you get multiversal wars, with even *heroes* fighting to destroy other worlds. It's roughly the same as the comics. "It's either them, or us, and if nobody fights to destroy the other, then we *all* die."
So like... how does that affect the fact that venom is now in 616? Or America? Aren't they both from a different universe?
I think what i Can say is that they are both different beings. America doesn't exist in any other universe, she is special and unique as she said "She doesn't dream" which would mean that no alternate version of her exists. Venom for example is different because he has vast knowledge of the multiverse maybe that has to do something with it( like it was said by himself at the post credit scene if let there be carnage) My interpretation is that since 616 doesn't have it's own version of America or Venom (that's why he came from other universe) incursion wouldn't happen.
From what I understood it was more specifically just the dreamwalking that causes incursions. I think of it like your consciousness is still tethered to your body but you're now also tethering it to the body of an alternate self, so it has a kind of rubber band effect causing the two universes to be pulled together. Imo its something difficult to be too certain about since I'm not sure if the 838 universe was aware of other methods of traveling between universes besides dreamwalking (particularly not being aware of America Chavez till recently), so it makes sense to me that they weren't more specific.
That magnet theory is damn good and helped it make more sense for me
No, they literally crash into each other. The only time they combined was when Doctor Doom, Doctor Strange and Molecule Man worked to pull the remains of the Multiverse together and create Battle World in Secret Wars (2015).
Wait, when did Vulture go to another universe?
The fact that this comment is so low makes me think people actually watched Morbius.
Ikr, I haven't seen morbius and I was wondering what they all are talking about.
>!in Morbius, he randomly goes to the Sony universe due to Dr Strange's spell from Spider-Man NWH, even though that's just not how the spell worked.!<
The spell was botched, who knows what implications a botched spell that travels between the known and unknown has? Literally anything could've happened, we are lucky.
Morbius isnāt actually canon to the MCU tho.
Just as canon as Eddie Brock's venom is
Actually no. The *Venom* movies were canonized by the NWH mid-credits scene. *Morbius* was made by Sony and has not been acknowledged by Marvel Studios or any MCU media. So at the moment it isnāt canon.
Tom Hardy's Venom was seen in the after-credit scene for NWH, and the Topher Grace version was directly mentioned by Tobey when they were discussing their villains.
how are we lucky?
We could be dead. He could've accidently summoned Surtur from another dimension and he would've thought it was his mission to destroy New Asgard on Earth or something. Any number of worse things could've happened.
Either this post is incredibly amazing or it just wouldn't make sense for sony and their going to do fuckall anyway
I feel most people won't give a shit anyway as long as they get their movies coming.
Sony could so easily do a Spider-Man 2099 film series and not worry about the MCU or Tom Holland but their executives seem like some of the dumbest people alive.
2099 is gonna be in Across the Spider-Verse.
I think they should just stick with their video game movies adaptation and animated movies and stay away from live action superhero movies
But venom in ours
He left at the end of the scene. Toomes stayed. I'm not sure if the drip was enough to cause an Incursion here. At least that place is taking Morbius with it.
Donāt incursions destroy both the universe youāre from and the one you traveled to? So if Vulture is the cause of an incursion in the Sonyverse it would also destroy the MCU.
Which could tie into MoM's post scene.
The "It's over" one?? >!/s!<
An incursion could either destroy both universes or just one of them.
Didnāt it say destroy one or both universes?
Morbius hate detected, opinion disregarded
Why the fuck are you getting downvoted? Morbius is the best movie in the entire Morbius trilogy. In fact, if we were to make a contest out of the best movies named "Morbius", Morbius would win. IGN gave it a 999% and so did RottenTomatoes. Such a shame that people can't appreciate art because they're blinded by stupidity. help jared leto is in my house what do i do
Iām getting downvoted because the power of morbius is to powerful for mortals, and about Jared Leto Iām your house, uhhh probably move
ok
Buddy, "Nick Fury: Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D." is a better movie.
Lies, morbius is the greatest movie of all time, as shown by the ultimate catchphrase, āitās morbin timeā
I just morbed my pants
My biggest issue with it is that after M.o.M., Mysterio in far from home guessed the universe's number correctly by accident and that seems like too much of a coincidence for us to know he was lying. And if I'm not mistaken, wasn't the MCU's universe called 99991 or something like that before? Is it a retcon?
From what I understand, when you look across the entire canon multiverse, it still is 99991. (I know itās DC, but) In The Flash season 2 when they explained the multiverse, Earth-2 Wells said that from his point of view, his earth was Earth-1. So itās pretty much from the perspective of where you are in the multiverse. 99991 is so far away from 616 that the characters mustāve named both 616 based on how much of the multiverse they know. Plus, from a writing perspective, 616 is the number of the established main universe. So having those universes so far away from each other to the point where theyāre both called 616 makes it easier to write about the multiverse without having the movies and comicsā ranges of the multiverse overlap. TL;DR, itās still technically 99991, but theyāre both called 616 since itās the number of the established main universe.
The only sources on the 616 numbering are Eric Selvig, the TVA, Mysterio and alternate universe Christine. Eric was crazy at the time, the TVA is full of lies, Mysterio is also full of lies, and Christine just made her own numbering system. So far, there's no 100% accurate confirmation of Earth-199999 being Earth-616, but fans are just referring to it as such because, as you said, it just means "main universe". Even though there's already an Earth-616.
Here's the explanation: There's a comic book multiverse, and there's a film multiverse. They're two separate *multiverses*, each with infinite universes. In the comic book multiverse, the main comic universe is universe 616. In the film multiverse, the MCU is universe 616. There's some minor overlap between both multiverses in some forms of media (some animated shows are references in the comic multiverse, and some are references in the filmic multiverse) but for the most part they're separate and the numbering doesn't conflict. When it *does* conflict-- such as when a comic book about an MCU movie is published, thus making it leak into the comic 616 universe-- the universe in question is re-numbered from the point of view of each universe (thus when such overlaps occur, which is rare, the MCU is referred to with the other number.) The film multiverse consists of all Marvel movies since *Red Sonja* and *Howard the Duck.* It may also include live-action Marvel TV shows like the original *Spider-Man* and *The Incredible Hulk* but this is one area where there's some overlap (we see original TV Spider-Man in 616's Spider-Verse event, for example.) The comic multiverse includes every print version of every Marvel character, ever, going back to *Marvel Comics #1.* It also includes some versions of the characters in animation, some versions in live-action (overlap with film multiverse here) and some odds and ends, like the D.C. comics primary universe which is actually another whole universe within the Marvel Multiverse (and the same goes for Marvel's 616 in the D.C. Multiverse, but this all gets very confusion with all their crossover events.) TL;DR - There are two **multi**verses, comic and film, and the "main" universe in each multiverse is referred to as 616. Edit: To address the Mysterio thing... We've established that dreaming is seeing through a version of yourself in another universe. We can guess, then, that MCU/616 Quentin Beck dreamed up the Mysterio "character" by seeing a version of himself in another universe, and that in that universe they were aware of the Multiverse and referred to the MCU as "616", leading to him repeating it to Peter when he was playing as the "dream version" of himself, the other-universe Mysterio.
In the movie, incursions only occurred when someone uses the darkhold to dreamwalk using their variant in another universe So, the sony universes are safe... (probably)
We're probably past this on this post but just in case, slight spoilers for MoM ahead: The actions of the illuminati would imply otherwise as their main concern in the movie was Strange, who arrived in that universe due to America's powers, not due to the darkhold. He even tells them that Wanda is using the darkhold and they still dismiss it in favour of dealing with him first. Since the illuminati is composed of some of the universe's smartest, most powerful people I'd be willing to say that any multiversal travel puts both universe's in danger, not just that which uses the darkhold.
It seems to me that traveling via the darkhold is actually safer. It doesnāt move any āforeignā matter into the target universe, just a personās mind (which is little more than what happens naturally in dreams) and apparently has inherent time limits to how long you can dreamwalk. We didnāt get much info on how Dr Strange 838 caused an incursion, I donāt think the Illuminati even knew much about the āhowā, so itās entirely possible that he was generally dreamwalking around just fine, but then decided to try something more with the universe he destroyed. As you point out, the Illuminati were more scared about the fact the Strange 616 showed up via an unknown mechanism. They were probably specifically afraid that Strange 616 had recreated the method Strange 838 had used that destroyed a universe.
while that could be possible, I would counter with the Strange from the universe that actually experienced an incursion. The third eye and just his whole story in general would seem to imply that it was his use of the darkhold that destroyed his universe. I suppose it was never confirmed so this is also just speculation but it seemed heavily implied that the darkhold was just as dangerous as any other form of universe hopping
**Spoiler** They, "the world's smartest people", also thought they could *handle* the Scarlet Witch, and we all saw how *that* turned out. Speaking of, I'm surprised more people aren't upset at how Reed Richards, the smartest man, went out like a total chump.
tbf to them, they had no way of knowing how much of a threat Wanda could be. Within their universe, Wanda was extremely docile and likely never awakened that kind of power, meanwhile their Strange was extremely dangerous. So based on their experience it made the most sense to treat Strange as the most threatening of the two, and simply deal with Wanda later. They just got unlucky in that the particular Strange and Wanda they were dealing with were extremely different from their own. Additionally I wouldn't say Reed Richards was treated as a chump so much as he was used to show just how powerful and scary Wanda was. We the audience knew how powerful all those characters were, so allowing them to try and take on Wanda and lose miserably showed just how powerful The Scarlet Witch truly was without having to kill off established characters or set up any of their backstories. Additionally, this is almost certainly not the last we've seen if ANY of those characters with the multiverse to play with, so the only real effect was allowing the audience to understand that Wanda was an extremely powerful threat and was not to be underestimated.
>Speaking of, I'm surprised more people aren't upset at how Reed Richards, the smartest man, went out like a total chump. No one is upset because how of fucking badass Wanda was when she killed him. Reed never stood a chance. It was brutal, graphic, and 100% authentic to how that fight would actually go down.
With the exception that I don't think he would try to elastipunch her right away
> Speaking of, Iām surprised more people arenāt upset at how Reed Richards, the smartest man, went out like a total chump. Blackboltās death was crazy enough that Reed sort of gets glossed over.
Or that the world's smartest man just gave her the knowledge to stop their "ace"
Yeah.... that was the part that bothered me.....
Well again, they didn't really know anything about this other Wanda from another universe His reveal of Black Bolt's power seemed more like a threat or warning, it was them being "reasonable" ...just so happened that they happened to be dealing with a very powerful reality bender
Yeah that's what I was thinking too. I thought they said it was the repeated dreamwalking that caused the incursions. So America's dimension hopping would be safe also.
So, the Illuminati captured Strange for fearing he might cause an incursion even though he did not have the darkhold, but ignored Wanda who was currently dream walking in their universe?
It's not just the darkhold, it's someone from outside of your universe doing something major that affects the timeline hence why the Illuminati apprehended Strange when he arrived. Dreamwalking is just the easiest/most common way of traversing the multiverse since there's a darkhold in every universe but only one person is known to actually be able to travel the multiverse with their own power and not dreamwalking.
That's what I thought at first until 616-Strange and Illuminati Christine discuss going to each other's universes would lead to an incursion even though the Darkhold had been destroyed and they wouldn't be traveling via Dreamwalking.
Could he be just a vulture variant that looks identical to the MCU vulture? Same how the JJJ in Toby Miguires universe is a variant of JJJ in the MCU.
I haven't seen Morbius, but apparently that is not the case.
Wait so what is the case then?
I was kinda stoned so I may be wrong in this, but iirc the sky just kinda does the NWH Doctor Strange spell effect, then he's in a random ass cell with all his MCU memories and the news is like "yo what the fuck, when did this guy appear in jail and who is he?"
Multiversal Hive Mind can be the reason that Symbiotes dont cause an incursion????
incursions arenāt that easily caused. in the movie they only happened when someone was using the Darkhold/dream-walking. otherwise America (and her parents!) would have caused a LOT of incursions. edit: also, part of the venom symbiote is still in the mcu 616 universeā¦
An incursion is caused by one universe adversely impacting another universe's timeline. How long it takes an incursion to happen varies, but it's completely possible that everything you've mentioned causes an incursion. It's also possible that America's original universe was already destroyed by an incursion. https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Glossary:Incursion
thatās how it works in the comics, thatās not confirmed canon in the mcu
It's not, but it's safe to assume that the Darkholds are not the difference maker, given that all Darkholds are now destroyed, and I'm sure they'll continue the incursions storylines. Absent of in-universe explanations, the comic explanations are the best we have to work off.
somehow i donāt think Marvel will reveal that Americaās parents died during an incursionā¦
Then why the Illuminati was focused on Strange, and ignored Wanda who was currently dream walking in their universe?
wait it's that easy to cause Incursion? At least break space time continuum or something? overstay a universe? that's BS. Like a character level of Strange can cause it make sense because the amount of magic he can do. But just staying? that's writing themselves into a corner
Agreed. I thought that was one of the worst ideas from MoM.
Like they did have a Watcher to give Black Widow a ride to another universe ?? That's 180 turn for a Watcher whose job is only to watch but now he cause an Incursion
No, incursions are caused when a character from one universe severely alters events in another universe. spoilers for MOM follow >!like how wanda dreamwalked and killed the 838 illuminati!<
that's not convincing at all. The comic Incursion is like a result of domino effect related to time travel shenanigan which broke space time continuum and universes etc. The movie doesn't have to follow exactly like the comic but as you said, she only killed a bunch of people which shouldn't result in incursion.
>!she didn't just kill any bunch of people, she killed Captain Marvel, professor X, Captain Carter, and Reed fucking Richards. That's a huge deal in that universe. Plus we've seen that dream walking in general is enough to start an incursion with Doctor Strange of Earth 838.!<
The illuminati didnāt scare of Wanda because she could dreamwalk. They only scare of Dr. Strange because what this man can do with his ability. What uār saying is like going into a house and kill the person inside it, suddenly the neighborās house fall on top of that house. It doesnāt matter who died in the house, itās much bigger than that for a house to fall on top of another.
That's not what causes an incursion.
That IS how an incursion is caused. The larger the footprint a variant leaves in a foreign universe, the greater the risk
Pretty sure thatās not was causes incursions. At least, the film never spelled it out as such. It was sort of ambiguous on that front.
Smart Move š±
Yes. Just because we loved Sony cameos in the MCU, doesn't mean we want more crap from Sony! Just sell the rights back Sony.
I mean we essentially traded Vulture for Venom.... well a variant Venom. I'm happy with that. I never had chips on the Sonyverse without MCU support.
Mutliverse is not the same as time travel and alternate timelines, at least as far as we know.
So that piece of venomā¦.
Is this logic true tho? I thought only in Dream Walk form can wreck havoc to the other universe. Chavez in MOM litterally travelled 74 different universes already and yet no Incursion occured.
It doesn't have anything to do with the Darkhold. It has to do with one universe having massive impacts on the timeline of another. Apparently, in the comics it's part of America's powers that she doesn't cause incursions, but it's possible the MCU doesn't use that, and we learn that she's caused and/or is continuously causing incursions.
It also means America Chavez staying in 616 is gonna cause an incursion in the main MCU too.
No it doesn't. Because her universe is outside the multiverse, these rules don't apply to her. The movie doesn't explain it but her home is called the utopian parallel and is outside the multiverse, so she can travel and stay wherever she wants to.
You said it yourself the movie doesn't explain it, so that explanation can't be used to defend it. I shouldn't have to open a single comic to understand a movie in a completely different continuity. Besides, that is still too much of a risk to take and is huge hit on every character in this garbage movie.
Blame the sloppy writing, but in the end her powers are outside the multiverse. So her staying in the MCU world would not destroy it.
Not cannon in the MCU, no MCU proof to lean on. Whatās in the comics isnāt exactly how itās interpreted to the MCU.
What about Defender Strange's corpse or the patch on the Cloak of Levitation.
Defender strange is dead and the patch of the cloak is just fabric. Both won't affect the fabrics of reality.
It's still matter, whether it's alive or not shouldn't change anything. Also, what about the bacteria on those things? Why doesn't that count?
Because it doesn't matter.
Cause this film is horribly written? Gotcha.
The writing was subpar, due to massive rewriting and additional content.
How, there is only one of her in all the multiverse.
The problem isn't two copies of same people/thing existing at once in the same universe. The problem is matter not native to a universe existing in it at all. Doesn't matter if she's the only one (which is nonsense and completely impossible by Loki's dumbass and contradictory rules) she is only native to one universe and existing in 616 should cause a collision.
I mean surely by the nature of her powers, it probably has some negation to incursions of some sort.
But wait, letās not forget The Venom Symbiote is still in the MCU.
I just finished watching Morbius few hours ago and oh God, best decision in my life. Morbius is one of the best movie ever made. The plot, the dialogue, the vfx, sfx, connection and continuity to the MCU, everything is * chef kiss * . Hopw they'll make Morbius 2
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Given their movie lineup, Sony is going to show Feige how to really destroy an IP
This kinda stuff is exactly what Iāve been saying
What's this in reference to?
So venom leaving behind a sludge count too
But During an incursion the heroes from each earth have to battle it out, and we all know Morbius will Morbwreck them
Well if you heard what they said in multiverse of madness staying to long in another universe would make them 2 universes to be destroyed. So technically that would destroy the Sony universe and the Disney universe
How did hey destroy the Sony verse? I'm kinda tired and can't connect the dots.
I loved it more when No Way Home destroyed several things raised in the MCU eos if it was fun, can't they put aside their fanaticism for a brand and enjoy all the adaptations equally? as if the MCU did such a great job with their characters criticize Morbius but applaud Taika Waitit's horrible Thor
Kevin Feige: This is ME being reasonable. Amy Pascal: *Shocked Pikachu face with no mouth*
It seemed that the incursions happen via dream walking, at least how itās been explained. Itās theorized that if another full body person staying in a different universe can cause an incursion but itās not fully confirmed
I thought it was partially because of the dark hold. Like, America it someone with her can do it all they want without an incursion happening. That was my take anyway.
Same here, it kinda makes America a constant danger if thatās the case
Right. Maybe it's only her actually. I just remembered she's supposed to be the only one of her across the entirety of the multiverse, so she can hop between them all she wants because there isn't a version of her in whatever universe she ends up in, but maybe it is still an issue if she has people with her. Idk though. I ultimately think her powers circumvent incursions, but idk. Does the movie explain all this and I'm just dumb? or is that why we're having this discussion in the first place? I feel like me being dumb is gonna be the answer regardless lol.
What's up with vulture?
morbius hijacked him into their sony universe
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Does this mean Venom will cause one?
Technically Sam Raimi helped meaning he destroyed the very thing he made
Lol.
I was under the impression they went back to universes where they survived but the original timelines still exist for the Spider-Men.
I thought I was like how Spider Verse did it, variants are erased from the non native universe, not the other way around?
I regret to inform you that only darkhold magic causes incursions, ie dreamwalking
Yeah, but then again Sonys Spider-Man game is completely destroyed Marvels entire Avengers game hahaha. Marvel hasnāt got shit on Sony in the gaming world. Untouchable.
Doesn't Sony's Venom also exist in 616 now?
I don't think that's how it works. Don't some characters in the comics move from one universe to another permanently?