Adding chicanes to the Mulsanne has actually added significant passing zones for the prototypes that would otherwise be kneecapped at passing by all the dirty air.
Watching a NASCAR race then watching the GTWC Endurance Cup race that’s the same length time wise kinda makes me go ehhhh that’s not really endurance. It’s like three one hour sprint races for the drivers
I absolutely agree, this always baffles me somewhat. IMSA does it in an interesting way with """endurance""" 2h40m races filling out the season plus the special events like Daytona, Watkins, Petit Le Mans, but I agree that a real endurance race is 10+ hours. Six hour races especially feel like they're just getting underway by the time the checkered falls. WEC has way fewer races but they feel more like proper enduros (especially over the 2h40m events that make up most of the IMSA season) because they're all pretty long, but with so few I often feel like I have to watch both to really get my fix for the year.
That's not really a complaint though, per sé, more like a quirk of the two series.
Lol IMSA fans seem to either love it or hate it. For me, as cars have become more reliable, I see no value in somebody losing a couple of laps and then having zero way to be back in the race despite being on pace. So then you just have a bunch of people dicking around on track with nowhere to go. Because it’s not like 20-30 years ago where you wait for somebody else to fail, the cars are just so much more reliable, it’s unlikely to happen.
Some argue it takes away from the endurance nature of the race, and that’s perfectly fine to have that take. But I respectfully disagree. Having more competitors in the hunt makes the race so much better. And it’s not as though IMSA just hands laps back, you still have to use field position and strategy to actually get the lap back under yellow, so it doesn’t take anything away for me. To me, as the cars have become more reliable, the definition of “endurance” in endurance racing has simply changed. It’s no longer trying to get the car to survive for 24 hours, but about full-on racing hard with other cars for that long and testing the focus and stamina of the drivers as well as pushing the cars to their limit for a long time.
For me, I would have no issue with the way they do yellow flags if they just got rid of the class splits and closing the pits until the field is all bunched back up. If the leader has a one minute lead, I don’t see why we should totally eliminate that gap so that it comes down to a pit stop being 0.2 seconds slower or second place jumping the restart better than the leader. Let’s bunch the field back up but let everyone pit as they go by and let the safety car pick up the leader and leave the order behind him as it is. If that means second place is stuck behind 20 cars then so be it.
To me, that would be a happy medium between allowing cars to recover from issues but also not making the whole thing a farce. I don’t see the point of watching the first 22 hours of a 24 hour race if it’s just going to come down to who can have the best pit stop/restart at the end. I’m oversimplifying of course, but only slightly.
I don’t disagree with the sentiment. The class split came about because of this exact situation, where the lapped cars were left in place, and it created tons of accidents because of the speed differentials and the pro-am drivers in some of the classes not yielding mixed with the pro drivers bullying the traffic out of the way. So the class split became a thing after competitor feedback and to eliminate those incidents.
Thanks for the insight. I didn’t realize that it used to be that way. I’ve only been watching sports car racing for a few years so I’ve been pretty skeptical of that argument since it seems to work just fine in WEC. And, as it is, the yellows do tend to be clustered together anyway in IMSA because you have cars of the same class battling for position on a restart. As long as people aren’t being stupid about it, I feel like having classes split naturally would cause less yellows because why would a GT car even try to fight a GTP car? Maybe IMSA should just get harsh with penalties for that kind of stuff instead.
No worries mate! I’ve been watching since 2009 during the split Grand Am and ALMS years, so glad I could provide that.
There’s a couple differences that I think work against implementation of not splitting classes properly into IMSA:
1. American tracks are really different than European circuits. In WEC, a lot of the tracks have tons of paved tarmac runoff, so if traffic clumps, you can usually avoid incidents by utilizing said runoff. Of course, there’s track limit penalties depending on how you use that area, but still, there’s a lot more working room. Over here, a lot of tracks are a bit old school. The runoff is either grass or a wall, so you don’t have as much room to play with when getting through traffic, plus our circuits can be a bit tight at times in general. So when you clump classes together from a stop, it just creates a bottleneck with nowhere to really go. This happened glaringly at Petit Le Mans a few years ago and the split came about shortly after that. Yes, it adds more of a challenge, but it also becomes a clusterfuck.
2. I think the LMP3 cars create a lot of this to be honest. Not only are they pro-am drivers, but LMP3 cars are seemingly woefully slow, so they get in the way of everything and cause tons of otherwise avoidable incidents. We saw this with the old LMPC class as well, they were getting tripped over by everyone. The few years we had where it was just DPI, LMP2, and the 2 GT classes, there were very few yellows, even at the 24, and you had a more clean old-school endurance style race where the car that was fastest and had the fewest problems was able to build a sizable gap. But when LMP3 came in, the yellows came back with them. Not to place the entire blame on LMP3 of course, but it’s been noticeable as someone who’s been watching for so long.
EDIT: Also, should a GT car fight with a prototype for space? No, you’re absolutely right. But do they? Yes lol. Why? I’m sure the prototype drivers are asking the same question.
Yeah, I think just overall the series would be improved by removing the LMP3s and the class split (maybe a two birds one stone situation). That being said, I still watch every race in its entirety, it’s just annoying how it plays out sometimes.
There’s very few IMSA fans who would disagree with removing LMP3’s lol. I’ve honestly gotten used to the class split, I don’t really care one way or another. They’re already under yellow and I’m usually only paying attention to the pit stops during that time anyway, so it doesn’t take away much for me honestly. But I get what you’re saying.
I'll open by saying that I don't think that LMP3 should be a top tier class - but most of their yellows come about from intra-class racing and car failures, at least last year. I'm open to the idea that I'm missing something, but I recall way more GTD-DPi or P2 am conflict in the past. They're faster than gtd cars at most tracks, so I'm not sure woefully slow is fair... For a prototype they certainly aren't fast, though.
If I remember correctly, class split came in response to LMP2s, which in the 2018 season were competitive on performance, interfering with DPi. It came at the same time that LMP2 became Pro-Am. [here's a link about it](https://racer.com/2018/08/03/imsa-to-split-prototype-classes-from-2019/) It was in large part to appease OEMs that were spending big money DPi racing that were getting BOPd to the LMP2. It was less reacting to incidents and more about firmly establishing a top class.
When we are talking about class split, it’s actually referring to the full-course yellow procedure where prototypes are moved to the front and slower cars moved to the back for restarts.
But yes, you’re correct, the LMP2 class was split from DPI for the 2019 season in response to manufacturers pushing for it after both JDC Miller Motorsports and Core Autosport took overall victories against DPI’s. Plus, DPI’s were being slowed down in order to keep the P2 cars competitive, because P2’s are homologated and IMSA couldn’t really speed them up much.
>I see no value in somebody losing a couple of laps and then having zero way to be back in the race despite being on pace.
Well if they lost two laps they're exactly where they deserve to be. Why should they be helped to get their laps back? Don't lose two laps next time.
Endurance racing is only ever good roughly every 5-7 years when the regulations align with manufacturer interests and you get 3-6 teams that are genuinely competitive in prototypes that make for legendary moments that diehard fans lust over. Otherwise it's a sport that is impossible for a casual fanbase to get into.
As much as we all want to see Toyota get beaten this year, let's not forget that they stuck with LMP1 after everybody else pulled out. If it wasn't for them we wouldn't even have had any serious LMP1s in the last few years.
Thank you Toyota!
But I don't want to see Toyota get beaten... I'm a fan of the 7 crew. Especially since Porsche broke up the 92 crew so I don't know wich Porsche to root for.
If Nissan had truly given the program the time and resources it needed, it could have been very successful. But like everything else they do, it was half-assed from corporate and as soon as it didn’t go their way immediately, the accountants picked up their ball and went home. And people wonder why their road cars are so awful as well.
I'm always disappointed that after Le Mans they did all that testing at COTA then never raced it again. Seemed a huge waste of the effort the engineers and team put into the car and I'd have liked to see what it was truly capable of
The car would have been brilliant if the hybrid system had worked
Having to compensate for the non-functioning hybrid system killed the dynamics of the car
Ok I'll start first. Mine is that Mazda 787B is one of the most overrated race car in the history of endurance racing. It surely have one of the best sound but was it fast? Absolutely not. It won 1991 Le Mans only because Mazda found a loophole in new 1991 regs. The new regs introduced 3.5L formula engine but FIA also allowed old Group C cars to run with 200kg extra ballast as well. 787B ran without that 200kg ballast in 1991 as they found loophole thus making it faster, fuel efficient, and reliable over way heavier previous Group C cars like Mercedes-Benz C11
I think everyone that actually follows this stuff and knows the details would agree with you, we just don't care because that car was rad as hell and had the most unique engine that will ever win at LeMans.
It's also not often discussed but one of the great things about the 787b and that race is that it was Mazda's last gasp at doing anything due to the reg changes you mentioned, AND their cars had been pretty unreliable for years. They were wailing away at racing with this one rotary idea for all of the 80s and for one day, it panned out perfectly on the world stage. And then it was all gone.
They went around the carousel a dozen times and finally grabbed the brass ring and it was *cool* and that's what matters.
Yeah I agree with you there, I'm a big fan of the car but people that think it was some super fast unstoppable machine that was banned for being too good are just ignorant of the facts. Makes more sense to believe that myth before the Internet was common and you could actually look things up.
On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if it only became a myth in the internet age, like so many other myths too.
In pre-internet age the end of GrC is still pretty recent and the regulation shitshow was well covered in motorsport magazines.
Overall agreed, but the weight break was not because it was a loophole, they just somehow managed to negotiate it for rotary cars probably with little opposition since their cars had done very little at this point. (Also 170kg exactly.)
https://www.autosport.com/wec/feature/3571/le-mans-91-herbert-amazing-win
> The Jaguar XJR-12 (the winner in 1990) and Mercedes C11 (successor to the Sauber C9 that triumphed in 1989) both had to run ballasted to 1000kg, compared to the 750kg of the 'atmo' cars. Since Peugeots weren't expected to last, nobody at Merc or Jag saw this as a major problem, since the older cars would be fighting each other on equal terms.
> There was some small print, however. A bit of politicking from Mazda caused the limit for rotary-engined cars - and who else could that be? - to be pegged at just 830kg. Nobody paid too much attention, but Mazda knew that having to carry 170kg less than the ostensibly faster cars for 24 hours was going to be something of an advantage.
I like the LMP3 cars, they sound nice and can give rookie drivers good exposure with a fairly decent price ($15k a race weekend). *Disclaimer, I do not condone for the driving standards of the LMP3 dentists*
Both Henry and Enzo are petty POS people, but honestly Ford's wins don't do nearly as much for me emotionally as other winstreaks. Yes, even Porsche's who are as milquetoast a championship marque as they come in racing. It makes Ford's preening in GTE-Pro ring hollow, even if I thought the GT GTLM/GTE looks cooler than the Ford GT1.
Also, y'all should exalt Jean Rondeau more.
I have some that might set people to typing. Although this sub tends to be quite knowledgeable and different from "normie" subs like r/cars so we'll see.
Group C and GT1 were not these wondrous long-lasting eras of prosperity and huge competition that a lot of people seem to think they were. The period of Group C that people are talking about lasted from 1987 to 1991 and out of all the manufacturers involved, only Porsche, Jaguar and Mercedes were ever remotely competitive for the World Championship or Le Mans. The years 1982 to 1986 were a Porsche benefit, and the 3.5 litre years were a bit sad.
GT1 was even shorter, just three years. And the racing wasn't even that good. Mercedes just took a massive shite on everyone in 1997 and 1998.
Also, I have no interest in a road-derived class being the top class of the World Championship or Le Mans. Prototypes have been at the front of the field since the 1950s (see the Jaguar D-Type, Mercedes Benz 300SLR).
To be fair, the GT1 cars were virtually prototypes that had a few extremely rare cars built to homologate them. The current LMH regulations which are prototypes with a bit more road car relevance aren’t that different to the GT1s really. I mean, just compare the CLK-LM and the CLR. Ones a GT1, and the other a LM-GTP. Yet they aren’t really that different.
I’d agree if it was something like the GTE cars that take a road car, and make it into a track car. But GT1 was taking a prototype and making it road legal, which I have no issues with.
Though you’re right about the rest, those years were still some great years. It’s rare that for top class motorsport that you get a few years of great racing. But to think it was any different to what we saw at the height of LMP1 would be wrong.
Only reason Porsche has a storied history with endurance for the most part is because they tend to flood the field with their cars. Remember that Le Mans 1983 ad? Or was it the 1984 ad, where it said nobody’s perfect, and 9 of the top 10 finishers were 956s? Well yeah because most of Group C were basically privateer Porsches.
With the 962 there is a point, but the 956 was weapon of choice as well as the only choice, as literally the only up to date car available for sale to privateers. Everything else was either an old works car that rarely came up for sale and was unreliable even when ran by the works team (Lancia) or a privateer project in itself.
Yeah. That’s the point.
Porsche saw an opportunity, already having an army of loyal clients in 911s racing all over the world.
While everybody else at that moment didn’t bother at all.
There weren't any real options other than trying to build your own cars. You put it like there were plenty of other options, but Porsche was just that much better.
To be fair, it’s not their fault there was no competition. It’s not really that different to Toyota recently, only difference is a bunch of other people could run the Porsche if they wanted to. As others said, they were still the best car there, but it’d be a disappointment if they weren’t.
Regardless, it’s part of why Porsche is a legendary brand in sportscar racing. They support their customers a lot, and it’s a tried and tested tactic. More cars on track, more data, gives a competitive advantage. Likewise, as long as their competitive, they’ve got the numbers in their favour by sheer volume. They’re doing a similar thing even now since most LMDh customers are using Porsches as far as I’m aware.
Lastly, as someone else said, while we mightn’t be fond of Toyota at the moment, they did keep the sport alive. Porsche was no different back in the day, and that’s why people love them. If it was sustainable for customer teams to race the LMP1s, I suspect we would’ve had similar sentiment towards Toyota.
Porsche indeed flooded the field and that was the key to their success during the Group C era but at the same time privateers bought Porsches cuz they were that good weren't they
I feel like that's discrediting the massive effort that Porsche has put into client sports programs for decades now. Sure their LeMans wins (overall & class) are in relevant parts a numbers game, but no other brand has actively supported this many cars amongst this many decades and this many rules and this many series. That's why their legacy is awe inspiring, not the raw trophy haul.
Maybe I was discrediting it a tad, but I’ll give them their respect, they earned it. It’s just mainly me being a bit cynical against Porsche in recent years with Toyota’s relatively easy reign at the top, when they don’t really speak of Porsche more or less dominating Group C until Jaguar and Mercedes had their way latter on. Same with Audi later on in the early 2000s.
Yes, I agree the reason the German brands are so good in GT3 is because they're the only ones running more than 2 cars. It's no wonder the big races like Spa, Nurburgring and Bathurst have seen only a handful of non-Merc, BMW, Audi and Porsche wins. The cars aren't necessarily better and the brands have won through numbers rather than the quality of their customers or engineering.
Keven Estre is hands down top 5 sportscars drivers in the world, but all the talent in the world isn't enough to make me forget nor forgive his behavior at Monza last year, I'm totally fine with aggressive fender to fender driving, but intentionally hitting another car on the track multiple times at high speeds and in braking zones is where I draw the line, things could have gone horrifyingly wrong because of that.
I've been crucified for this opinion before.
I'll second that opinion-ish. I'm relatively new to Endurance Racing, so Kevin Estre was basically the only driver I supported. Then I saw him drive like that, and I thought he was ridiculous, I was astonished he didn't get disciplined. Maybe it's just me, but I haven't seen anyone who still seems to care about it, so it's difficult for me to still care about it.
I really really hope that Ferrari/Porsche conflict does not continue into the LMH class. Estre and Christensen as the Grello drivers are my favourite GTE Pro Crew and the 2021 Racing incident really hurt, but that does not justify his manners at Monza.
I still have a small hope that Peugeot is betting on only winning Le Mans with it's long straights and top speeds. The rest of the calendar doesn't matter only the big 24h race.
For all its faults I actually like [BOP.One](https://BOP.One) car or one team dominating in any race series just means the winner is whoever spends the most money,the cars all look the same & the racing is spread out.
This is a really interesting idea that I see more and more every year.
It's the largest car market so why not?
NASCAR has trucks. A global SUV series would be really interesting
Endurance racing isnt cool because of the racing, its cool because of the state of the art engineering and the simple splendour behind the aerodynamics that are applied to the outside of a road car chassis and all of the technology that directly gets crossed over to said road cars.
Endurance races without any long-term strategy thanks to wave-by rules (IMSA, for as long as they refuse to introduce FCY) and other micromagement (SRO's retarded FCY-always-followed-by-safety-car procedure) that essentually slash the gaps every hour are not real endurance races.
Couldn't agree more. Due to these rules it's enough when you hang around in the top 10 and wait for the final hour. I know I've said it very often but that's why I love NLS and the 24 hours of Nürburgring.
24 hours is perfect. No matter what I’m doing that day I can still catch parts of the race. I can take a nap and racing is still on. If I napped in the middle of a F1 race I might miss the entire thing.
its the other way around though, you'll miss a lot more from 24h race when you sleep or have to go out
with f1 you just need to spare 90 minutes out of your day in the weekend and you'll get to watch every moments, if anything its weird to sleep on an f1 race unless you didnt like it
In high school and college when I had less responsibilities I could stay up for that whole 24 and enjoy the race. Now I’ve got shit to do and I tend to miss a lot of the race now. Even with Daytona I only watched maybe 4 hours just cause I was so busy, it made me sad
I’m so excited for Le Mans this year. Not only because of the 100th anniversary and the big Hypercar field, but because I should be actually able to watch the whole thing live for once. It’s my birthday that weekend and my wife will be out of town. She keeps saying she feels bad that she can’t do something for my birthday but this is actually perfect.
Ha yeah that’s me this year, I think I’ve watched the entire Bathurst 12H, almost all of the last Spa 24, Almost all of Le Mans 24, went to Daytona so it’s harder but probably watched around 8-10 hours overall. I love staying up to catch the whole thing but man does it ruin the sleep schedule 😅
The Ferrari 458 Italia GTC is my favourite absolute racecar and was an awesome machine (ready for the "dentists who drove it were constantly crashing prototypes")
Ferrari is a terrible team all around. Not specifically to endurance racing but just wanted it known that ferrari was so arrogant that he is the reason he stopped winning in the 60s.
I’m supporting the Porsche’s and Ferrari’s in hypercar
edit: maybe that’s not an opinion but I could see it winding someone up and it feels sacrilegious even in my own head
prototypes don't really feel futuristic. i get due to BOP LMH/LMDH/GTP are put under constraints but imagine if we had a field of wild and outlandish cars that sounded AND looked different. seeing to current group feels nice and we have a wide range of cars but imagine if even wilder designs like modernized deltawings or jag XJR-8s mixed in with the more standard designs if not more that never left the design board!
It's highly unlikely that would ever be sustainable for more than 2 to 3 years, don't get me wrong it would be amazing to watch a wide range of designs racing for the win but without BoP included, two things will happen;
1) After 2-3 years, all teams know what the best car is and we get a convergence of designs, just look what's happening in F1 with the sidepods and that's only been 1 year.
2) We get a spending war of the big manufacturers to find the best design that fits within the regulations (most likely looking like the current cars). This would then lead to a large amount of teams leaving and we get another 2018 WEC of 1 large manufacturer still racing.
Most LMHs and LMDh don't really look that good. I like the Glick and BMW very much, but the other designs are kinda underwhelming (Vanwall, Cadillac, Peugeot, Ferrari) or just kinda ugly (Porsche, Acura, Toyota).
They look cool, but not good...
I do like the look of the Ferrari, but I was hoping for the designs to be adapted from their road going hyper cars (imagine a LeMans version of a LaFerrari). Instead we got an evolution of the prototype cars.
But still happy to see all the competition from different manufacturers. Hope to see more enter later lol
I'm trying to understand where you are coming from here. Are you new to sportscars, coming into it now with the new Hypercars or have you been around for a while? Amateurs are not a recent phenomenon. That is how sportscar racing (most motorsport really) has always been, and very likely always will be. It is simply a fact of the sport, like the fact that the cars have wheels.
I don't care about LMP2 at all. They're slow and ugly.
Also the bronze/silver/whatever driver thing makes no sense. This is the pinnacle of endurance racing.
I don’t have anything against the Oreca 07, but LMP2 really sucks from a conceptual standpoint.
This applies to LMP3 as well, but limiting the number of constructors and then making it difficult to upgrade the cars at all was a horrible idea. LMP2 was doing fine when it was an open class. There wasn’t some massive spending war that was killing the competition, the grids were fine and the interested parties were building their cars. I think the ACO speculated that things would spiral so they came up with their current formula, but I don’t see it. It was mostly just Oreca and Ligier selling cars, with a few more niche machines (Dome, SMP, HPD) and some open-top cars that were being phased out. If they really didn’t want manufactures involved then just say “no manufacturers can be involved.”
But watching 20 Orecas take up grid space at Le Mans is incredibly boring. Sure, the racing is close, but like 90% of the draw to sportscar racing is the variety in entries. Close racing and huge grids when everybody is in the same car seems so “fabricated.” Give me half the cars but different entries every time.
It is genuinely insane that the series doesn't go to Silverstone.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKan8VKCC3U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKan8VKCC3U)
Failed F1 drivers are better for WEC than Indycar.
F1 washouts never win Indycar championships and continue to chase single seater glory. WEC allows them to continue to compete at the highest level, drive less during the year and have longer motor racing careers if success follows.
I unironically like LMP3 racing better than LMP2, and not for the "dentist crashing" joke.
They look cool and at least there's some semblance of variety unlike LMP2 where it's the Oreca 07 Trophy
Somehow the most prestigious sportscar races have shit track layouts. Daytona is like 4 hairpins and a chicane. LeMans is like 70% straight, 4 chicanes, saved by the first 2 right handers in the Porsche curves. Sebring is just bumpy and outside of the first and last turn nothing special, but at least remotely a racetrack, unlike Daytona and LeMans. There is not driver test, no difficulty, nothing redeeming about Daytona or LeMans, driving them in the sim is amongst the dullest experiences out there. Neither holds a candle to Spa, Silverstone, Road Atlanta, Nordschleife, that feels like actually driving and not just mere stop & go.
To counter your slander about Le Mans, I will say that from where Dumbreck took off all the way to Tertre Rouge is the best stretch of track anywhere in the world.
Well you're entitled to your opinion, the problem is that modern downforce makes too much of it irrelevant. Tertre Rouge is a great corner but in reality it's really easy to drive nowadays, same goes for the esses after the dunlop bridge (also the "banking" here keeps the car in check anyway). It's really 3 corners that are challenging and fun, the first right hander and last left hander in the Porsche curves, and the right hand kink into Indianapolis both combined are pretty ballsy.
Spa has a similar issue where Blanchimont and Eau Rouge are barely inconveniences but the entire downhill section, especially Pouhon, and then Stavelot really get you to feel the car. LeMans is too much straight, too many easy corners, and then half a dozen chicanes.
a track doesn't need to be amazing to hotlap to produce great racing, Daytona is like exhibit A for this
conversely if you want to talk about sim racing, Spa is a great track to run laps on but holy fuck if it doesn't seem to drop the average racer's IQ score by like 50 points every time a series goes there
agree regarding Le Mans, that track is really only suitable for endurance events. Sebring is great, guess it lacks in elevation but that's whatever. My hot take is that most FIA grade 1 tracks are fucking boring.
it's OK to have racing be a blood sport. don't like the risk? Don't drive. Don't wanna get close to the big dangerous curb? post a slower lap time.
the safety Karens are killing motorsports.
meanwhile some dude in a RedBull suit is base jumping 2 feet away from certain death and everyone cheers. Danny Mac is doing backflips on his mountain bike on top of a cliff face. Motorcycle racers in ireland are stacking a hay bale in front of a stone wall at the Ballysally roundabout and saying "fuck it lets race"
someone in a race car crashes and suddenly the tracks need 4 miles of gravel traps, the fans are moved back to the orbit of Venus, and the curbs are shaved down to the point they are just bumps and drivers just go over them.
I want some honest to god risk in the sport again.
On one hand I appreciate them sticking around, because a world championship with no manufacturers in the top class would probably not survive for long (I could be wrong).
But on the other hand, yes they do feel hollow. Watching a factory team get Le Mans wins against privateers is like watching a heavyweight knockout a welterweight, it’s not all that impressive if we’re being honest. Had Toyota been down to ditch LMP1 we could’ve had DPi at Le Mans for the last several years. I know people hated that idea, but it would’ve been better racing and we would’ve ended up probably exactly where we are today with the convergence.
I think my somewhat unpopular opinion is that Toyota might fall into irrelevancy over the next couple of years and then be the surprise team that bails. Not saying it will happen, but I just wouldn’t be surprised to see them take their half a decade of Le Mans success and call it.
Most Hypercars and GTEs sound like such shit now and it takes away from the spectacle. At least GT3 will bring in the AMG V8 and Audi/Lambo V10s for a change.
If the alpine isn’t allowed to race under the new hypercar rules with a altered lmp1 chassis then neither should the Toyota. It should be knocked down to lmp2 until they build an actual hypercar
Are you sure you're not getting mixed up here? The GR010 was the first car to be properly homologated against the hypercar ruleset. It's a completely different and bespoke chassis, suspension, power train etc to it's LMP1 predecessor.
The Alpine A480 however was a rebadged LMP1 rebellion /Oreca that was BOP'd to to be slower and on a relatively even pegging to the GR010. The A480 was grandfathered for 2 years while the other manufacturers (including Alpine) got their hypercar projects underway.
I'm new to WEC (started to watch last year)
But the Toyota is a lmp1 ? The alpine looked really similar to a lmp1 but i find the Toyota very similar to the New hypercar (Porsche, Ferrari..etc).....its dont look like a lmp1 for me ;-;
You should google it. The Toyota is not a carry on. The GR010 is a new car built to LMH rules. The TS050 is an old LMP1 design, with a different power train, body, and everything. Yes, they look somewhat similar. But they are different cars, and the GR010 is a purpose built hypercar. And yes, the GR010 uses lots of knowledge and ideas from the TS050 since Toyota would be silly not to.
Edit: This comment sounds really mean on my part. I don’t mean it like that. I’m trying to inform not kick you down.
So was the alpine just a carry over then or was that all developed in the same ways as the Toyota?
Comment didn’t sound mean at all either, was very informative
I get that electric/hybrid and other complicated electronics are the future of cars and I welcome them in consumer cars but the more complicated these racecars get the less interesting the racing is to me. I'm not saying we need to go back to everything being an iron block v8. I'm all for pushing the boundaries of internal combustion with turbos and high tech materials but a car should be setup before a race and only make manual changes durring pit stops. The virtual energy limits in imsa are so stupid. It makes it all the more annoying when a car quits mid race for an unspecified electrical problem.
Don't think its an opinion that'll leave me like OPs picture but I think there should be an official wec game. Even if it don't come out every year but it'd be cool every couple years having a dedicated game
Adding chicanes to the Mulsanne has actually added significant passing zones for the prototypes that would otherwise be kneecapped at passing by all the dirty air.
Yeah I'll die with you on this hill. Adding those chicanes was a very good idea that came along at the right time.
While I hate chicanes in general, Mulsanne definitely needed them.
Completely agree.
they're good chicanes too
3 hour races aren’t technically endurance races. They’re just longer sprint races.
Watching a NASCAR race then watching the GTWC Endurance Cup race that’s the same length time wise kinda makes me go ehhhh that’s not really endurance. It’s like three one hour sprint races for the drivers
I run three hour endurance karting races by myself lol
Idk about that one tbh
3 hour races used to be endurance events when cars would break down. They don't break down anymore.
24 hour races aren’t endurance races, they’re 24 hour sprint races
Six hours isn’t an “endurance race” when you have 2-3 drivers. They should all be 10+ hours for a world championship level series.
Yes, or at least more 8h races. Why only Sebring and Bahrrain?
If honestly like to see 24 at Le Mans and then get adventurous with a 10 and a 16 and an 18 and a 14. Mix it up. Make it a test of machine.
I absolutely agree, this always baffles me somewhat. IMSA does it in an interesting way with """endurance""" 2h40m races filling out the season plus the special events like Daytona, Watkins, Petit Le Mans, but I agree that a real endurance race is 10+ hours. Six hour races especially feel like they're just getting underway by the time the checkered falls. WEC has way fewer races but they feel more like proper enduros (especially over the 2h40m events that make up most of the IMSA season) because they're all pretty long, but with so few I often feel like I have to watch both to really get my fix for the year. That's not really a complaint though, per sé, more like a quirk of the two series.
Those 2h40m races are considered Sprint Races, and are part of the overall championship. The four 6hr+ races are the Endurance Cup.
I like the IMSA wave-around rule (*ducks for cover immediately).
Ironically (maybe unsurprisingly?), saying the opposite would be the unpopular opinion in the IMSA sub.
Lol IMSA fans seem to either love it or hate it. For me, as cars have become more reliable, I see no value in somebody losing a couple of laps and then having zero way to be back in the race despite being on pace. So then you just have a bunch of people dicking around on track with nowhere to go. Because it’s not like 20-30 years ago where you wait for somebody else to fail, the cars are just so much more reliable, it’s unlikely to happen. Some argue it takes away from the endurance nature of the race, and that’s perfectly fine to have that take. But I respectfully disagree. Having more competitors in the hunt makes the race so much better. And it’s not as though IMSA just hands laps back, you still have to use field position and strategy to actually get the lap back under yellow, so it doesn’t take anything away for me. To me, as the cars have become more reliable, the definition of “endurance” in endurance racing has simply changed. It’s no longer trying to get the car to survive for 24 hours, but about full-on racing hard with other cars for that long and testing the focus and stamina of the drivers as well as pushing the cars to their limit for a long time.
For me, I would have no issue with the way they do yellow flags if they just got rid of the class splits and closing the pits until the field is all bunched back up. If the leader has a one minute lead, I don’t see why we should totally eliminate that gap so that it comes down to a pit stop being 0.2 seconds slower or second place jumping the restart better than the leader. Let’s bunch the field back up but let everyone pit as they go by and let the safety car pick up the leader and leave the order behind him as it is. If that means second place is stuck behind 20 cars then so be it. To me, that would be a happy medium between allowing cars to recover from issues but also not making the whole thing a farce. I don’t see the point of watching the first 22 hours of a 24 hour race if it’s just going to come down to who can have the best pit stop/restart at the end. I’m oversimplifying of course, but only slightly.
I don’t disagree with the sentiment. The class split came about because of this exact situation, where the lapped cars were left in place, and it created tons of accidents because of the speed differentials and the pro-am drivers in some of the classes not yielding mixed with the pro drivers bullying the traffic out of the way. So the class split became a thing after competitor feedback and to eliminate those incidents.
Thanks for the insight. I didn’t realize that it used to be that way. I’ve only been watching sports car racing for a few years so I’ve been pretty skeptical of that argument since it seems to work just fine in WEC. And, as it is, the yellows do tend to be clustered together anyway in IMSA because you have cars of the same class battling for position on a restart. As long as people aren’t being stupid about it, I feel like having classes split naturally would cause less yellows because why would a GT car even try to fight a GTP car? Maybe IMSA should just get harsh with penalties for that kind of stuff instead.
No worries mate! I’ve been watching since 2009 during the split Grand Am and ALMS years, so glad I could provide that. There’s a couple differences that I think work against implementation of not splitting classes properly into IMSA: 1. American tracks are really different than European circuits. In WEC, a lot of the tracks have tons of paved tarmac runoff, so if traffic clumps, you can usually avoid incidents by utilizing said runoff. Of course, there’s track limit penalties depending on how you use that area, but still, there’s a lot more working room. Over here, a lot of tracks are a bit old school. The runoff is either grass or a wall, so you don’t have as much room to play with when getting through traffic, plus our circuits can be a bit tight at times in general. So when you clump classes together from a stop, it just creates a bottleneck with nowhere to really go. This happened glaringly at Petit Le Mans a few years ago and the split came about shortly after that. Yes, it adds more of a challenge, but it also becomes a clusterfuck. 2. I think the LMP3 cars create a lot of this to be honest. Not only are they pro-am drivers, but LMP3 cars are seemingly woefully slow, so they get in the way of everything and cause tons of otherwise avoidable incidents. We saw this with the old LMPC class as well, they were getting tripped over by everyone. The few years we had where it was just DPI, LMP2, and the 2 GT classes, there were very few yellows, even at the 24, and you had a more clean old-school endurance style race where the car that was fastest and had the fewest problems was able to build a sizable gap. But when LMP3 came in, the yellows came back with them. Not to place the entire blame on LMP3 of course, but it’s been noticeable as someone who’s been watching for so long. EDIT: Also, should a GT car fight with a prototype for space? No, you’re absolutely right. But do they? Yes lol. Why? I’m sure the prototype drivers are asking the same question.
Yeah, I think just overall the series would be improved by removing the LMP3s and the class split (maybe a two birds one stone situation). That being said, I still watch every race in its entirety, it’s just annoying how it plays out sometimes.
There’s very few IMSA fans who would disagree with removing LMP3’s lol. I’ve honestly gotten used to the class split, I don’t really care one way or another. They’re already under yellow and I’m usually only paying attention to the pit stops during that time anyway, so it doesn’t take away much for me honestly. But I get what you’re saying.
I'll open by saying that I don't think that LMP3 should be a top tier class - but most of their yellows come about from intra-class racing and car failures, at least last year. I'm open to the idea that I'm missing something, but I recall way more GTD-DPi or P2 am conflict in the past. They're faster than gtd cars at most tracks, so I'm not sure woefully slow is fair... For a prototype they certainly aren't fast, though. If I remember correctly, class split came in response to LMP2s, which in the 2018 season were competitive on performance, interfering with DPi. It came at the same time that LMP2 became Pro-Am. [here's a link about it](https://racer.com/2018/08/03/imsa-to-split-prototype-classes-from-2019/) It was in large part to appease OEMs that were spending big money DPi racing that were getting BOPd to the LMP2. It was less reacting to incidents and more about firmly establishing a top class.
When we are talking about class split, it’s actually referring to the full-course yellow procedure where prototypes are moved to the front and slower cars moved to the back for restarts. But yes, you’re correct, the LMP2 class was split from DPI for the 2019 season in response to manufacturers pushing for it after both JDC Miller Motorsports and Core Autosport took overall victories against DPI’s. Plus, DPI’s were being slowed down in order to keep the P2 cars competitive, because P2’s are homologated and IMSA couldn’t really speed them up much.
>I see no value in somebody losing a couple of laps and then having zero way to be back in the race despite being on pace. Well if they lost two laps they're exactly where they deserve to be. Why should they be helped to get their laps back? Don't lose two laps next time.
Respectfully disagree, but just two different opinions on it, just was sharing my point of view.
You mean the lucky dog rule?
I don’t believe Aaron’s would appreciate that trademark infringement 😂😉
I like the wave around, I don't like the near hour long FCY that it can cause.
Endurance racing is only ever good roughly every 5-7 years when the regulations align with manufacturer interests and you get 3-6 teams that are genuinely competitive in prototypes that make for legendary moments that diehard fans lust over. Otherwise it's a sport that is impossible for a casual fanbase to get into.
Yep. I'm just getting back into it this season after ignoring it since Audi and Peugeot left.
As much as we all want to see Toyota get beaten this year, let's not forget that they stuck with LMP1 after everybody else pulled out. If it wasn't for them we wouldn't even have had any serious LMP1s in the last few years. Thank you Toyota!
But I don't want to see Toyota get beaten... I'm a fan of the 7 crew. Especially since Porsche broke up the 92 crew so I don't know wich Porsche to root for.
If the rules weren't heavily in their favor they would've pulled out.
Nissan ditched the GT-R LM too early. A beautiful car that could've shined had they fixed its flaws first
nissan put more money on hyping the car than to make it work
From Super Bowl ad to abject failure and complete abandonment in a blink of an eye
If Nissan had truly given the program the time and resources it needed, it could have been very successful. But like everything else they do, it was half-assed from corporate and as soon as it didn’t go their way immediately, the accountants picked up their ball and went home. And people wonder why their road cars are so awful as well.
I'm always disappointed that after Le Mans they did all that testing at COTA then never raced it again. Seemed a huge waste of the effort the engineers and team put into the car and I'd have liked to see what it was truly capable of
It was never going to work. Let's face it, cool concept can't overcome inherent design limitations
What limitations did it have? Since if you slapped an evo aero kit on that car with the hybrid it should have been quite good.
The car would have been brilliant if the hybrid system had worked Having to compensate for the non-functioning hybrid system killed the dynamics of the car
Ok I'll start first. Mine is that Mazda 787B is one of the most overrated race car in the history of endurance racing. It surely have one of the best sound but was it fast? Absolutely not. It won 1991 Le Mans only because Mazda found a loophole in new 1991 regs. The new regs introduced 3.5L formula engine but FIA also allowed old Group C cars to run with 200kg extra ballast as well. 787B ran without that 200kg ballast in 1991 as they found loophole thus making it faster, fuel efficient, and reliable over way heavier previous Group C cars like Mercedes-Benz C11
I think everyone that actually follows this stuff and knows the details would agree with you, we just don't care because that car was rad as hell and had the most unique engine that will ever win at LeMans. It's also not often discussed but one of the great things about the 787b and that race is that it was Mazda's last gasp at doing anything due to the reg changes you mentioned, AND their cars had been pretty unreliable for years. They were wailing away at racing with this one rotary idea for all of the 80s and for one day, it panned out perfectly on the world stage. And then it was all gone. They went around the carousel a dozen times and finally grabbed the brass ring and it was *cool* and that's what matters.
Totally agree with you but there are still some people who thinks 787B was banned cuz it was too fast cuz they don't know the truth so
Yeah I agree with you there, I'm a big fan of the car but people that think it was some super fast unstoppable machine that was banned for being too good are just ignorant of the facts. Makes more sense to believe that myth before the Internet was common and you could actually look things up.
On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if it only became a myth in the internet age, like so many other myths too. In pre-internet age the end of GrC is still pretty recent and the regulation shitshow was well covered in motorsport magazines.
It was banned for having too much swag
It’s wasn’t the only rotary to win at LeMans though. It’s the only one to win overall.
...you know what I meant.
I did lol I’m just being pedantic and maybe some newcomers will gain a little knowledge.
Overall agreed, but the weight break was not because it was a loophole, they just somehow managed to negotiate it for rotary cars probably with little opposition since their cars had done very little at this point. (Also 170kg exactly.) https://www.autosport.com/wec/feature/3571/le-mans-91-herbert-amazing-win > The Jaguar XJR-12 (the winner in 1990) and Mercedes C11 (successor to the Sauber C9 that triumphed in 1989) both had to run ballasted to 1000kg, compared to the 750kg of the 'atmo' cars. Since Peugeots weren't expected to last, nobody at Merc or Jag saw this as a major problem, since the older cars would be fighting each other on equal terms. > There was some small print, however. A bit of politicking from Mazda caused the limit for rotary-engined cars - and who else could that be? - to be pegged at just 830kg. Nobody paid too much attention, but Mazda knew that having to carry 170kg less than the ostensibly faster cars for 24 hours was going to be something of an advantage.
how were they able to run without 200kg?
https://reddit.com/r/wec/comments/11r5g7q/whats_your_opinion_about_endurance_racing_that/jc7vv13?context=3
I like the LMP3 cars, they sound nice and can give rookie drivers good exposure with a fairly decent price ($15k a race weekend). *Disclaimer, I do not condone for the driving standards of the LMP3 dentists*
Sebring 2012 with the combined ALMS/WEC was the best Sebring
That and 2011 with ILMC/ALMS.
Both Henry and Enzo are petty POS people, but honestly Ford's wins don't do nearly as much for me emotionally as other winstreaks. Yes, even Porsche's who are as milquetoast a championship marque as they come in racing. It makes Ford's preening in GTE-Pro ring hollow, even if I thought the GT GTLM/GTE looks cooler than the Ford GT1. Also, y'all should exalt Jean Rondeau more.
>even if I thought the GT GTLM/GTE looks cooler than the Ford GT1. This was the part that got me riled up.
The WEC calendar could use more interesting circuits here and there. I’m glad they go to Sebring, will be a shame to see it go.
I have some that might set people to typing. Although this sub tends to be quite knowledgeable and different from "normie" subs like r/cars so we'll see. Group C and GT1 were not these wondrous long-lasting eras of prosperity and huge competition that a lot of people seem to think they were. The period of Group C that people are talking about lasted from 1987 to 1991 and out of all the manufacturers involved, only Porsche, Jaguar and Mercedes were ever remotely competitive for the World Championship or Le Mans. The years 1982 to 1986 were a Porsche benefit, and the 3.5 litre years were a bit sad. GT1 was even shorter, just three years. And the racing wasn't even that good. Mercedes just took a massive shite on everyone in 1997 and 1998. Also, I have no interest in a road-derived class being the top class of the World Championship or Le Mans. Prototypes have been at the front of the field since the 1950s (see the Jaguar D-Type, Mercedes Benz 300SLR).
not that i don't agree with the last part, but then's prototypes bore more similarities to standard cars that today's ones do.
To be fair, the GT1 cars were virtually prototypes that had a few extremely rare cars built to homologate them. The current LMH regulations which are prototypes with a bit more road car relevance aren’t that different to the GT1s really. I mean, just compare the CLK-LM and the CLR. Ones a GT1, and the other a LM-GTP. Yet they aren’t really that different. I’d agree if it was something like the GTE cars that take a road car, and make it into a track car. But GT1 was taking a prototype and making it road legal, which I have no issues with. Though you’re right about the rest, those years were still some great years. It’s rare that for top class motorsport that you get a few years of great racing. But to think it was any different to what we saw at the height of LMP1 would be wrong.
Only reason Porsche has a storied history with endurance for the most part is because they tend to flood the field with their cars. Remember that Le Mans 1983 ad? Or was it the 1984 ad, where it said nobody’s perfect, and 9 of the top 10 finishers were 956s? Well yeah because most of Group C were basically privateer Porsches.
Porsches are a weapon of choice for a reason.
With the 962 there is a point, but the 956 was weapon of choice as well as the only choice, as literally the only up to date car available for sale to privateers. Everything else was either an old works car that rarely came up for sale and was unreliable even when ran by the works team (Lancia) or a privateer project in itself.
Yeah. That’s the point. Porsche saw an opportunity, already having an army of loyal clients in 911s racing all over the world. While everybody else at that moment didn’t bother at all.
There weren't any real options other than trying to build your own cars. You put it like there were plenty of other options, but Porsche was just that much better.
To be fair, it’s not their fault there was no competition. It’s not really that different to Toyota recently, only difference is a bunch of other people could run the Porsche if they wanted to. As others said, they were still the best car there, but it’d be a disappointment if they weren’t. Regardless, it’s part of why Porsche is a legendary brand in sportscar racing. They support their customers a lot, and it’s a tried and tested tactic. More cars on track, more data, gives a competitive advantage. Likewise, as long as their competitive, they’ve got the numbers in their favour by sheer volume. They’re doing a similar thing even now since most LMDh customers are using Porsches as far as I’m aware. Lastly, as someone else said, while we mightn’t be fond of Toyota at the moment, they did keep the sport alive. Porsche was no different back in the day, and that’s why people love them. If it was sustainable for customer teams to race the LMP1s, I suspect we would’ve had similar sentiment towards Toyota.
Porsche indeed flooded the field and that was the key to their success during the Group C era but at the same time privateers bought Porsches cuz they were that good weren't they
Little of a, little of b. Porsche was good, but they also got a lot of data on car development from the teams.
I feel like that's discrediting the massive effort that Porsche has put into client sports programs for decades now. Sure their LeMans wins (overall & class) are in relevant parts a numbers game, but no other brand has actively supported this many cars amongst this many decades and this many rules and this many series. That's why their legacy is awe inspiring, not the raw trophy haul.
Maybe I was discrediting it a tad, but I’ll give them their respect, they earned it. It’s just mainly me being a bit cynical against Porsche in recent years with Toyota’s relatively easy reign at the top, when they don’t really speak of Porsche more or less dominating Group C until Jaguar and Mercedes had their way latter on. Same with Audi later on in the early 2000s.
Yes, I agree the reason the German brands are so good in GT3 is because they're the only ones running more than 2 cars. It's no wonder the big races like Spa, Nurburgring and Bathurst have seen only a handful of non-Merc, BMW, Audi and Porsche wins. The cars aren't necessarily better and the brands have won through numbers rather than the quality of their customers or engineering.
Toyota will continue to dominate and win Lemans again.
But 2024 is the year. At least in WEC we can now use the Next Year meme cos we have Ferrari.
https://preview.redd.it/fk93mokn1sna1.jpeg?width=731&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=a9013381d41e12a97c462f10680885f1fba015c8
Keven Estre is hands down top 5 sportscars drivers in the world, but all the talent in the world isn't enough to make me forget nor forgive his behavior at Monza last year, I'm totally fine with aggressive fender to fender driving, but intentionally hitting another car on the track multiple times at high speeds and in braking zones is where I draw the line, things could have gone horrifyingly wrong because of that. I've been crucified for this opinion before.
I'll second that opinion-ish. I'm relatively new to Endurance Racing, so Kevin Estre was basically the only driver I supported. Then I saw him drive like that, and I thought he was ridiculous, I was astonished he didn't get disciplined. Maybe it's just me, but I haven't seen anyone who still seems to care about it, so it's difficult for me to still care about it.
I really really hope that Ferrari/Porsche conflict does not continue into the LMH class. Estre and Christensen as the Grello drivers are my favourite GTE Pro Crew and the 2021 Racing incident really hurt, but that does not justify his manners at Monza.
The new Peugeot looks awesome but it's never going to win anything. There's a reason that race cars have rear wings.
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I like it, it makes it unique.
I still have a small hope that Peugeot is betting on only winning Le Mans with it's long straights and top speeds. The rest of the calendar doesn't matter only the big 24h race.
For all its faults I actually like [BOP.One](https://BOP.One) car or one team dominating in any race series just means the winner is whoever spends the most money,the cars all look the same & the racing is spread out.
SUV’s need there own championship and the flagship event being a 24 hour race at mugello
I first laughed at this, but would be funny. I mean, search for Formula Truck in Brazil.......
If you're gonna bring SUVs, may as well make it a 24hr race at Sebring…
This is a really interesting idea that I see more and more every year. It's the largest car market so why not? NASCAR has trucks. A global SUV series would be really interesting
Imagine Urus vs Purosangue vs Cayanne at Le Mans 😂😂
I feel like Dakar fills this niche, it just needs more popularity
Dakar isn't broadcast other than ultra condensed highlights, and the cars don't start at the same time.
Endurance racing isnt cool because of the racing, its cool because of the state of the art engineering and the simple splendour behind the aerodynamics that are applied to the outside of a road car chassis and all of the technology that directly gets crossed over to said road cars.
Endurance races without any long-term strategy thanks to wave-by rules (IMSA, for as long as they refuse to introduce FCY) and other micromagement (SRO's retarded FCY-always-followed-by-safety-car procedure) that essentually slash the gaps every hour are not real endurance races.
I feel like the reliability that we have seen over the last decade has really ruined the endurance racing elements of all of it
Couldn't agree more. Due to these rules it's enough when you hang around in the top 10 and wait for the final hour. I know I've said it very often but that's why I love NLS and the 24 hours of Nürburgring.
Just for future reference, try not to use the R word in the future.
24 hours is a lot of time investment for one car race.
24 hours is perfect. No matter what I’m doing that day I can still catch parts of the race. I can take a nap and racing is still on. If I napped in the middle of a F1 race I might miss the entire thing.
its the other way around though, you'll miss a lot more from 24h race when you sleep or have to go out with f1 you just need to spare 90 minutes out of your day in the weekend and you'll get to watch every moments, if anything its weird to sleep on an f1 race unless you didnt like it
In high school and college when I had less responsibilities I could stay up for that whole 24 and enjoy the race. Now I’ve got shit to do and I tend to miss a lot of the race now. Even with Daytona I only watched maybe 4 hours just cause I was so busy, it made me sad
Aw man I feel you. I always try to clear my schedule for the 24h weekends but it doesn’t always work out that way
I’m so excited for Le Mans this year. Not only because of the 100th anniversary and the big Hypercar field, but because I should be actually able to watch the whole thing live for once. It’s my birthday that weekend and my wife will be out of town. She keeps saying she feels bad that she can’t do something for my birthday but this is actually perfect.
What if she's faking and she's planning a jam packed weekend away for the both of you?
It’s funny, because that is exactly something she would do lol
Oh no!! Hahahaha going to be the sweetest surprise and you’ll like it but secretly wishing you finally had time to watch!
That was how I watched Le Mans in the 2000s.
Ha yeah that’s me this year, I think I’ve watched the entire Bathurst 12H, almost all of the last Spa 24, Almost all of Le Mans 24, went to Daytona so it’s harder but probably watched around 8-10 hours overall. I love staying up to catch the whole thing but man does it ruin the sleep schedule 😅
The older I get the less I wanna mess with my sleep schedule.
Yeah I’m starting to hate messing with it too, it’s just so hard to recover it once it’s gone
Disagree. WEC should be ALL calendar with 24 hours races. It's cool as hell.
There should only be one prototype class
The Ferrari 458 Italia GTC is my favourite absolute racecar and was an awesome machine (ready for the "dentists who drove it were constantly crashing prototypes")
The 787B was not that good
There should be more 24 hour races. I say this because i enjoy sitting for 24 hours and just watching 3 hours is like watching nascar on road courses
LMP3 is FUN
Ferrari is a terrible team all around. Not specifically to endurance racing but just wanted it known that ferrari was so arrogant that he is the reason he stopped winning in the 60s.
I’m supporting the Porsche’s and Ferrari’s in hypercar edit: maybe that’s not an opinion but I could see it winding someone up and it feels sacrilegious even in my own head
I miss the ALMS
prototypes don't really feel futuristic. i get due to BOP LMH/LMDH/GTP are put under constraints but imagine if we had a field of wild and outlandish cars that sounded AND looked different. seeing to current group feels nice and we have a wide range of cars but imagine if even wilder designs like modernized deltawings or jag XJR-8s mixed in with the more standard designs if not more that never left the design board!
It's highly unlikely that would ever be sustainable for more than 2 to 3 years, don't get me wrong it would be amazing to watch a wide range of designs racing for the win but without BoP included, two things will happen; 1) After 2-3 years, all teams know what the best car is and we get a convergence of designs, just look what's happening in F1 with the sidepods and that's only been 1 year. 2) We get a spending war of the big manufacturers to find the best design that fits within the regulations (most likely looking like the current cars). This would then lead to a large amount of teams leaving and we get another 2018 WEC of 1 large manufacturer still racing.
Toyota being dominant since 2018 has been beneficial to wec
Bathurst should be a 24h race. If any non Australian team goes there it's going to be expensive no matter what, so you might as well make it a 24.
Most LMHs and LMDh don't really look that good. I like the Glick and BMW very much, but the other designs are kinda underwhelming (Vanwall, Cadillac, Peugeot, Ferrari) or just kinda ugly (Porsche, Acura, Toyota). They look cool, but not good...
I appreciate that Peugeot actually did something interesting
I do like the look of the Ferrari, but I was hoping for the designs to be adapted from their road going hyper cars (imagine a LeMans version of a LaFerrari). Instead we got an evolution of the prototype cars. But still happy to see all the competition from different manufacturers. Hope to see more enter later lol
It's better than F1 cos there's no DTS
Or DRS.
DRS really ain't that bad
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Are you voicing your opinion on voicing your opinion? Shame.
I have zero interest in any race/class that includes amateur drivers, I understand why they are there but I have no interest in watching them drive.
I'm trying to understand where you are coming from here. Are you new to sportscars, coming into it now with the new Hypercars or have you been around for a while? Amateurs are not a recent phenomenon. That is how sportscar racing (most motorsport really) has always been, and very likely always will be. It is simply a fact of the sport, like the fact that the cars have wheels.
Giving them their own classes is a more recent phenomenon though
I don't care about LMP2 at all. They're slow and ugly. Also the bronze/silver/whatever driver thing makes no sense. This is the pinnacle of endurance racing.
I don’t have anything against the Oreca 07, but LMP2 really sucks from a conceptual standpoint. This applies to LMP3 as well, but limiting the number of constructors and then making it difficult to upgrade the cars at all was a horrible idea. LMP2 was doing fine when it was an open class. There wasn’t some massive spending war that was killing the competition, the grids were fine and the interested parties were building their cars. I think the ACO speculated that things would spiral so they came up with their current formula, but I don’t see it. It was mostly just Oreca and Ligier selling cars, with a few more niche machines (Dome, SMP, HPD) and some open-top cars that were being phased out. If they really didn’t want manufactures involved then just say “no manufacturers can be involved.” But watching 20 Orecas take up grid space at Le Mans is incredibly boring. Sure, the racing is close, but like 90% of the draw to sportscar racing is the variety in entries. Close racing and huge grids when everybody is in the same car seems so “fabricated.” Give me half the cars but different entries every time.
Hard agree. Every class should allow all pro lineups
A World Endurance Championship without a round in Britain (undisputably the home of motor racing) is not a complete championship.
It is genuinely insane that the series doesn't go to Silverstone. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKan8VKCC3U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKan8VKCC3U)
The home of motor racing is France though.
Failed F1 drivers are better for WEC than Indycar. F1 washouts never win Indycar championships and continue to chase single seater glory. WEC allows them to continue to compete at the highest level, drive less during the year and have longer motor racing careers if success follows.
I unironically like LMP3 racing better than LMP2, and not for the "dentist crashing" joke. They look cool and at least there's some semblance of variety unlike LMP2 where it's the Oreca 07 Trophy
Can’t wait for gt3 at le mans, should’ve been done a while ago
We need grid femboys before the race
Convergence isn't convergence when you gatekeep with eligibility criteria that keep out most of the manufacturers.
Somehow the most prestigious sportscar races have shit track layouts. Daytona is like 4 hairpins and a chicane. LeMans is like 70% straight, 4 chicanes, saved by the first 2 right handers in the Porsche curves. Sebring is just bumpy and outside of the first and last turn nothing special, but at least remotely a racetrack, unlike Daytona and LeMans. There is not driver test, no difficulty, nothing redeeming about Daytona or LeMans, driving them in the sim is amongst the dullest experiences out there. Neither holds a candle to Spa, Silverstone, Road Atlanta, Nordschleife, that feels like actually driving and not just mere stop & go.
To counter your slander about Le Mans, I will say that from where Dumbreck took off all the way to Tertre Rouge is the best stretch of track anywhere in the world.
Well you're entitled to your opinion, the problem is that modern downforce makes too much of it irrelevant. Tertre Rouge is a great corner but in reality it's really easy to drive nowadays, same goes for the esses after the dunlop bridge (also the "banking" here keeps the car in check anyway). It's really 3 corners that are challenging and fun, the first right hander and last left hander in the Porsche curves, and the right hand kink into Indianapolis both combined are pretty ballsy. Spa has a similar issue where Blanchimont and Eau Rouge are barely inconveniences but the entire downhill section, especially Pouhon, and then Stavelot really get you to feel the car. LeMans is too much straight, too many easy corners, and then half a dozen chicanes.
The more I watch Road Atlanta races, the more its becoming my favorite track.
a track doesn't need to be amazing to hotlap to produce great racing, Daytona is like exhibit A for this conversely if you want to talk about sim racing, Spa is a great track to run laps on but holy fuck if it doesn't seem to drop the average racer's IQ score by like 50 points every time a series goes there agree regarding Le Mans, that track is really only suitable for endurance events. Sebring is great, guess it lacks in elevation but that's whatever. My hot take is that most FIA grade 1 tracks are fucking boring.
I hate the 905 peugeot sound, and i don't like the Porsche GTE sound either. High pitch engine sounds are not my thing.
Guess you love Caddilac V-Series.R like low pitch sound
I don't care if Cadillac aren't very fast this year, I just love the car
I oddly like the sounds of turbocharged cars more for some reason lol.
Ford GT sounded sick and I'll miss it.
My favorite car to drive in GT7. Shame the engine sound is off, considering there are alot of cars with accurate engine sounds in game.
Any order of sounds you think are pleasing to the ear?
Does this also translate to say a v10 or v8 F1 car?
Yup, i believe it is one of the reason i never was into f1 when younger.
Dang, that's truly a shame to hear
Precisely my feeling :p
That is simply heresy.
I don't understand the love for the Porsche GTE sound either. I find it just loud as shit and not really beautiful.
It's better than F1
it's OK to have racing be a blood sport. don't like the risk? Don't drive. Don't wanna get close to the big dangerous curb? post a slower lap time. the safety Karens are killing motorsports. meanwhile some dude in a RedBull suit is base jumping 2 feet away from certain death and everyone cheers. Danny Mac is doing backflips on his mountain bike on top of a cliff face. Motorcycle racers in ireland are stacking a hay bale in front of a stone wall at the Ballysally roundabout and saying "fuck it lets race" someone in a race car crashes and suddenly the tracks need 4 miles of gravel traps, the fans are moved back to the orbit of Venus, and the curbs are shaved down to the point they are just bumps and drivers just go over them. I want some honest to god risk in the sport again.
The Toyota LM24 wins feel so hollow
On one hand I appreciate them sticking around, because a world championship with no manufacturers in the top class would probably not survive for long (I could be wrong). But on the other hand, yes they do feel hollow. Watching a factory team get Le Mans wins against privateers is like watching a heavyweight knockout a welterweight, it’s not all that impressive if we’re being honest. Had Toyota been down to ditch LMP1 we could’ve had DPi at Le Mans for the last several years. I know people hated that idea, but it would’ve been better racing and we would’ve ended up probably exactly where we are today with the convergence. I think my somewhat unpopular opinion is that Toyota might fall into irrelevancy over the next couple of years and then be the surprise team that bails. Not saying it will happen, but I just wouldn’t be surprised to see them take their half a decade of Le Mans success and call it.
If the class doesn’t have a realistic shot at an overall win, I don’t care.
Most Hypercars and GTEs sound like such shit now and it takes away from the spectacle. At least GT3 will bring in the AMG V8 and Audi/Lambo V10s for a change.
BoP for Hypercar sucks.
ACO were wrong way back when, in creating a rule set that presupposes only one class of car can or should win
They actually tried a two winning class approach with LMP900 & LMP675. It didn't really work out though and morphed into LMP1 & 2
Sainz is better than Leclerc: fight me
Every driver in endurance racing will jump to F1 when they get the chance. I will chain myself.
that's not even debatable
That’s like saying “every college football player would go to the NFL if they were drafted” lol
This goes for every race driver in every series of circuit racing.
Do chain yourself, endurance racers either aren't at the calliper of f1 or are washed f1 drivers
[удалено]
Wrong post? I think
r/lostredditors
Jay-z has never been number one
If the alpine isn’t allowed to race under the new hypercar rules with a altered lmp1 chassis then neither should the Toyota. It should be knocked down to lmp2 until they build an actual hypercar
Are you sure you're not getting mixed up here? The GR010 was the first car to be properly homologated against the hypercar ruleset. It's a completely different and bespoke chassis, suspension, power train etc to it's LMP1 predecessor. The Alpine A480 however was a rebadged LMP1 rebellion /Oreca that was BOP'd to to be slower and on a relatively even pegging to the GR010. The A480 was grandfathered for 2 years while the other manufacturers (including Alpine) got their hypercar projects underway.
I don't believe you know what you are talking about there friend.
I'm new to WEC (started to watch last year) But the Toyota is a lmp1 ? The alpine looked really similar to a lmp1 but i find the Toyota very similar to the New hypercar (Porsche, Ferrari..etc).....its dont look like a lmp1 for me ;-;
Without googling it the Toyota is a carry on from the lmp1 days
You should google it. The Toyota is not a carry on. The GR010 is a new car built to LMH rules. The TS050 is an old LMP1 design, with a different power train, body, and everything. Yes, they look somewhat similar. But they are different cars, and the GR010 is a purpose built hypercar. And yes, the GR010 uses lots of knowledge and ideas from the TS050 since Toyota would be silly not to. Edit: This comment sounds really mean on my part. I don’t mean it like that. I’m trying to inform not kick you down.
So was the alpine just a carry over then or was that all developed in the same ways as the Toyota? Comment didn’t sound mean at all either, was very informative
The alpine was an lmp1 car, previously run by rebellion racing. If I remember correctly they just detuned it to try to balance with the hypercar rules
You do remember correctly (maybe there's some ballast in there too, I don't know).
Why would you not Google it and do some research? Like... seriously?
I get that electric/hybrid and other complicated electronics are the future of cars and I welcome them in consumer cars but the more complicated these racecars get the less interesting the racing is to me. I'm not saying we need to go back to everything being an iron block v8. I'm all for pushing the boundaries of internal combustion with turbos and high tech materials but a car should be setup before a race and only make manual changes durring pit stops. The virtual energy limits in imsa are so stupid. It makes it all the more annoying when a car quits mid race for an unspecified electrical problem.
Don't think its an opinion that'll leave me like OPs picture but I think there should be an official wec game. Even if it don't come out every year but it'd be cool every couple years having a dedicated game