T O P

Purging my commander decks of Reserved List cards.

Purging my commander decks of Reserved List cards.

LaserfaceJones

My Mimeoplasm list is worth nearly 7 grand according to archidekt. If they ever reprinted duals or stuff like Survival of the Fittest, I'd be super happy other people got the chance to play with them too.


melonstapler

They won’t, but I agree with your point.


Argotheus

I still wish they had made battlebond lands typed, then probably only 1% of people that still care would have to ever again


Trashblog

I went through my decks at the start of lock down looking for a bit of extra value to help pay bills and expenses. I haven’t played in a few years but still like to buy 2-3 copies of a select cards that look useful each set and just put them on “the pile” to sort into my 15 yo collection….. I promptly packed everything up carefully to be put into our safe deposit box at the bank at the next opportunity. It felt a bit gross and really sad. I just want to play with my old cards but no way am I getting these cards out in a room full of people.


MuffinChap

The fact my [[Retribution of the Meek]] costs about as much now as a [[Wheel of Fortune]] did back then just blows my mind.


MTGCardFetcher

[Retribution of the Meek](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/6/860b8633-1bfc-426a-8666-5e6a584d4525.jpg?1587857186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Retribution%20of%20the%20Meek) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vis/19/retribution-of-the-meek?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/860b8633-1bfc-426a-8666-5e6a584d4525?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/retribution-of-the-meek) [Wheel of Fortune](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/5/2597050f-6b1b-474e-aa16-33fd154628ca.jpg?1562902580) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wheel%20of%20Fortune) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/192/wheel-of-fortune?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2597050f-6b1b-474e-aa16-33fd154628ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wheel-of-fortune) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Tuss36

Sucks especially since it's perfectly in pie for white, but they can't make anything equal or better than it. [[Dusk]] is closest but for 4 mana you could just wipe everything, though of course the aftermath matters.


Apocrypha

They can make better things they just often refuse. Look at any RL creature to understand they’ve definitely printed better cards.


melonstapler

This is incorrect. They can not print, for example, 1W destroy all creatures with power 4 or greater. That would violate the reserved list. Just like they can’t print untapped tri lands (island,swamp,forest for example) because of the already existing duals. They can print more powerful cards yes, but it must be distinct in some way from the reserved list card. [[city wide bust]] is the perfect example here. Very close to the original, but distinct so it doesn’t violate the reserved list. Edit: people are downvoting me, but wotc has confirmed that strictly better versions violate the reserved list.


Lithl

That's not true. The official reprint policy prohibits reprints and functionally identical cards (specifically defining functionally identical as "same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness"). It does _not_ prohibit strictly better cards.


MTGCardFetcher

[city wide bust](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/3/33d1a51a-abf0-458c-98ae-98fcf4063fd9.jpg?1591319957) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Citywide%20Bust) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/82/citywide-bust?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/33d1a51a-abf0-458c-98ae-98fcf4063fd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/citywide-bust) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[Dusk](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426912&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dusk) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/63/dusk-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e9d5aee0-5963-41db-a22b-cfea40a967a3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dusk) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


CaptNaptime

I’ve moved to a singleton commander collection over the passed 6 months. RL heat and big money cards are proxied and stay at home safe and sound. The playgroup knows I own em; no need to carry around a $10k backpack.


Icy-Regular1112

I did this as well. Anything over $100 is now a proxy and the real stuff stays at home. I also swapped my revised duals for this which decorates my office wall. https://imgur.com/gallery/GTynhho


Shinkenoh

Limit the long term light exposure to prevent card bleaching. Sunlight's worse but lights can still affect the card inks/dyes in the long run.


Icy-Regular1112

Thanks for the pointer. I have UV protected “museum glass” for the front plate and it is not in direct sunlight from windows at any point in the day. That should be good, right?


MandatoryMahi

Go home Savannah, you're drunk!


sloatd

Question then. Should someone have to own an expensive reserve list card to have the right to proxy it? I guess the answer varies from playgroup to playgroup.


[deleted]

Magic should be played by everyone. Never should a piece of cardboard cost more than a dollar or two. Proxy everything you want.


Bustermax

My rule on proxies is that it has to be a good quality proxy. I need to be able to tell what it is with a casual glance while scanning the board stare. No scribbling on cards or paper. Lol


[deleted]

Yes! This is a great caveat. Magic cards are nice to look at, and ugly proxies, or sharpie on the back of basic lands which says "Whel of Fortune" is going to annoy me quite a bit. On that note though, I feel like the OG dual lands are ugly enough themselves, and I would actually PREFER good proxies than having to look at them. Not that I would ever complain though.


hydrogator

$100 bill is just a piece of paper. Why can't we all just use proxies?


MirandaSanFrancisco

Personally, I refuse to abide by “you have to own the card to proxy it.” I’ll play either “only real cards” or “proxy whatever, go nuts,” but I don’t have time for “I spent $10k on my deck and I want you to spend $10k on your deck but I don’t want to risk actually using those cards in a game.” If it’s that important that people own real copies of the cards then it’s that important that they use real copies. Tournament rules.


DrXStein76

I think this is why ‘session 0’ conversations are super important with new play groups. For me, I won’t proxy a card that I don’t own, the exception to this being an expensive card I want to test drive before I buy. But I also don’t care if somebody that I’m shuffling up with has a deck that is 100% proxies of cards they don’t own. I want to play against your deck, not your wallet. But at the same time I have heard some very compelling arguments against proxies (not enough to change my mind, but enough that I understand where the other side is coming from)


hydrogator

WotC has been printing cards for 28 years now. There are endless amount of cards that are cheap and still function well for these 'casual playgroups'. Why if these groups are so casual they feel they have to have the most powerful cards yet not actually own them? What is wrong with just having a few expensive cards you like and fill up your deck with whatever else you can get or trade for? They make double sleeves now. Cards are more protected then ever. Or if really expensive bring the slab and once your proxy comes in play you put the slabbed card out. If you don't want to do that then you should question your playgroup or maybe only play it occasionally. Seems many here say, 'why do you need money to have more sought after things?' like we should all get yachts and have anything we ever want just because.


Deepest-derp

> If it’s that important that people own real copies of the cards then it’s that important that they use real copies. Tournament rules. ITs so you can swap them in when someone insists all real cards. I carry a staples binder so i can swap to real cards on request.


faelmine

Proxy as much as you want as long as everyone is on the same level of power for the decks


Shamlezz

I own a decent amount of RL cards and I say reprint them to oblivion


kilian148

Do you think it would crash the price of the originals into oblivion? When i thought about it, every time there was a reprint the reprint was cheap and the original went down in price a bit but it almost never crashed/came to the same price as the reprint.


Arpgren

Wizards wouldn't reprint RL in a booster box. Oh no, it would be a $200 collectors pack just like Double Masters and have chaff like Healing Salve and Lord of the Pit as iconic full art rares. Yes I know healing salve isn't rare, but it will be.


Gryffix13

Mana Drain was like $150 before its reprint. The originals are now over $325. Original Imperial Recruiter is over $200. It probably wouldn't hit them too bad. The value of the originals as collectors items will pretty much always cause them to hold their value.


500lb

Idk of it's a fair comparison, but the original [[three visits | ptk]] was over $200, but is now ~$75 since it got it's first reprint in Commander Legends


Gryffix13

It isn't unreasonable for short term behavior. But if I recall Drain dipped down around the same, but now a couple years later on its back way up. Obviously predicting the future is impossible unless you're in meteorology, but these feel like reasonably strong indicators of what original printings of RL cards would do in theory.


mrhelpfulman

It only went that high last year, It was closer to its current price a year and a half ago. Also, P3K was a very small print run and that card was a common. It had no business being that expensive in the first place.


MTGCardFetcher

[three visits ](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/0/306d22ae-657e-4b52-8cd9-6fc3df9e8376.jpg?1562256061) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=10567) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ptk/153/three-visits?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/306d22ae-657e-4b52-8cd9-6fc3df9e8376?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/three-visits) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


kilian148

I think my commander legends foil mana drain ist now something about 50€? So if it would go for every card (i know thats not how to predict but its easier) rl cards would be also more expensive than their reprints


Yell0w_Mustard

Look up the price of an alpha or beta birds of paradise. Then look up how many times birds has been reprinted and how many of those reprints use the original art. Literally do this.


scoopsatinstantspeed

Even if the RL cards lost 95% of their value, its worth it thanks to all the new players who could play old formats.


scubahood86

Definitely not. Collector's items are collector's items. Look at basic lands from Alpha/beta and you'll immediately see that ANYONE arguing that reprints will lower the value of older cards is on glue. Or for a more concrete example: [[[swords to plowshares](https://shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/alpha-edition/swords-to-plowshares?xid=pi952e8b95-7029-4e9e-bce1-93c97db33c4d&)]]. Reprinted into the ground, but if you can track down an older version you'll pay a pretty penny.


Shut_It_Donny

Shivan Dragon. Given away for free in Starter packs. Go buy an ABU and see what ya pay.


goatsareeverywhere

Sol ring is probably the best example that exists. Reprinted in literally every commander deck, ABU prints are still mind-bogglingly expensive.


Shut_It_Donny

No way. There might be a slight dip because some players will use whatever, but the collectors and players that care about bling, will want the OGs.


Plknhuio1

I think at worst, Revised edition duals would tank, but the ABU ones will largely be fine. Over all editions, the price will go down and then steadily climb. Anyone who has large positions in reserved list cards would take a pretty big short term hit, but I can't see it being too bad long term, though


kilian148

I can imagine most of them bought them a long rime ago so even if it drops, they are positive no matter what.


Plknhuio1

Yeah, exactly. Anyone who has that sorta position is going to sell some of it if they really need the money, so it's no big deal, I'd think. Maybe if you only have revised duals and their value goes in the bin, that's kinda sad, but still, that's assuming they go for pennies, which they won't


Quarreltine

If reprints hurt older printings, would cards like AB Shivan Dragons sell for over a grand? Only the non-playable cards that people are speculating on stand to lose value from reprints.


FoundationUnique2118

And the less desirable versions of heavily used cards like revised duals. Sharp beautiful fresh cards with mtgo art would destroy revised dual pricing.


SocorroTortoise

That may not even be true. Revised Birds of Paradise still has $20 over the next most expensive version. I know if I had the option to swap revised duals for new printings, I would stick with revised mostly out of nostalgia.


noknam

If I had the option of swapping my 2 revised duals for new printings + a new top tier phone I would be figuring out how to copy my damn whatsapp history. Nostalgia is nice, but not x hundred euro/dollar nice.


Shut_It_Donny

For some people it is though.


Quarreltine

True, but those aren't collectors items then. Their price is a consequence of utility and demand. Why would WotC care though? The value of all other cards drops with reprints, and new frames can become the most sought after varieties.


__space__oddity__

> Sharp beautiful fresh cards with mtgo art would destroy revised dual pricing. Great! Where’s the button I can push to make that happen? OG duals are TERRIBLE collector’s items. There’s too many of them to be really scarce (200k?), they’re butt ugly (oh god that text box, why), they’re needed for Legacy, EDH etc. decks so many of them are played and in terrible condition, and they have zero fake protection so unless you really know what you’re buying for that $600 (which you should have spent to just build another EDH or modern deck), your game piece might just be fake. (If you think that fakes aren’t a problem, remember that there are graded fakes out there. If people who literally take money to evaluate cards can be fooled, are YOU sure you bought the right thing?) The earlier we can stop pretending OG duals are good for MtG collectors, the better. Reprint those fuckers to hell.


Apocrypha

Also the print quality of revised in general is garbage. Our $500+ “collector” items are bad. If that quality was printed today people would laugh. There’s some sets I actively avoid for their print quality now as well. Mm15 foils, amonkhet, ima.


[deleted]

I have a M15 Shivan Dragon I keep unsleeved in my wallet that was LITERALLY given to me for free because its a 1 cent rare at best and yet the original Shivan Dragon is thousands of dollars


Myriadtail

According to Scryfall, The Revised cards that are not on the Reserved list and worth 20$+ are: * Mana Vault (91$) * Birds of Paradise (46$) * Demonic Tutor (45$) * Shivan Dragon (30$) * Wrath of God (28$) * Sol Ring (24$) * Winter Orb (23$) If a card that has been a throw-in on every single commander deck since the commander precons have been a thing can make this list, *Abolish the fucking reserve list.* Let's not even get into the fact that the Reserve List is there so that "Older cards don't lose their value" which basically directly implies that WotC acknowledges the secondary market. Something they can't do because then that means their pack concept is considered gambling by at least five European countries.


Neonbunt

Elves of Deep Shadow costs hardly 0.02€, but did you look at the original printing? 20-30€ easily.


melonstapler

This point is brought up a lot and it is mostly true... mostly. The issue is that revised duals would lose 99% of their value over night which would lead to a tsunami of law suits for wizards. Other printings would hold their value just fine. Revised? Not so much.


Quarreltine

Don't disagree. But why would anyone expect revised, a reprint set, to be the collectable set forever going forward? They're already the affordable cards. Trusting the reserved list alone to provide value is foolish.


melonstapler

Because wizards of the coast explicitly said they were collectible when they created the reserved list :/ it sucks but that’s how it works. I wish they could abolish it, but legally there are no options.


Quarreltine

Who is going to sue them and for what exactly?


melonstapler

Anyone who owns a reserve list card that has been reprinted can sue wotc for the lost value.


Quarreltine

Sure, anyone can sue for just about anything. Can they win? It's unlikely they could even make it to trial. There is no contract, no legal precedent, and there have been past breaches of the reserved list that haven't resulted in legal action.


melonstapler

Often the threat of legal action is more terrifying to a corporation than the consequences of losing are. Wotc doesn’t care if they would win the suits or not, they don’t want to pay for a legal battle at all. (It’s probably hasbro calling the shots at this point but my point still stands)


Quarreltine

Oh they would most certainly win. Which is why the reserved list is doomed. That it all comes down to expected legal fees means eventually the cost to benefit ratio reaches the point where WotC will again opt to violate their reserved list guarantee.


Shut_It_Donny

They've been breaking the RL for years with no lawsuits.


SlingerOGrady

Same here, I even have a Gaea's Cradle that I haven't used since the spike. I just want to play Legacy Elves without proxies.


guesdo

I would love to just ban them altogether in Legacy and Commander. Get over with this shit. We have more than enough cards to be worrying for a few.


Shamlezz

I mean I'd be sad to see wheel of fortune go away along with winds of change. I just tell my group to proxy anything besides dual lands. No one NEEDS dual lands. Unless it's a cedh deck run the shocks and call it a day


Shut_It_Donny

Funk that. I want my land base as smooth as possible, even in battle cruiser EDH. Lands are the most important part of a deck (99.9% of the time). I absolutely despise ETB tapped lands. Everyone should access to true duals.


MirandaSanFrancisco

Why dual lands specifically? Sure you don’t need them but is it that big a deal?


guesdo

Yeah, we can solve it with proxies and what not, but is not consistent between playgroups. It's also true availability is a problem, not only price. Banning the RL (aside from Vintage) would open the format by a LOT some cards might get very expensive, but at least those can get reprinted! And we might also see people trying new strategies with new cards.


Shamlezz

I mean you could always rule 0 them out. My group has a couple fun rule 0 shenanigans we get into


cubrey

Damn it's hard to imagine those pieces selling for that low. As far as I'm concerned if a card is on the RL it's fair game to proxy.


SUSavant

I started playing in 2002. Back then, you could buy an Unlimited Black Lotus for $300. Which I thought was insane at the time. Who's gonna' pay $300 for a card?


rezignator

Just last year I was considering buying the 2013 comicon Lilliana of the dark realms, as a birthday gift to myself, but it was around 250 dollars. I decided to err on the side of caution because of covid and save the money. This year I was thinking about it again and due to a nice promotion I got I was willing to shell out that much now. Surprise it's now over 2 grand.....


Razulghul

Oof I feel this. A year or so ago I traded in a rare game console feeling like it was finally time to get a forcefield from my lgs. Little did I know someone had bought every copy listed for $400 or less off the web recently (market price was still $350ish) so they wouldn't sell it for less than $600. Now it's $1000.


ronnielaw

Shiiiiit. I've actually held a beta Black Lotus and at the time is was going for about $100.00. Couldn't afford anything like that as a kid. Had an old ice age starter deck box loaded up with about 60 of the book promo Mana Crypts, everyone back then thought it was a shit card, I thought they were garbage but neat and they didn't have any real value back then. Some of those absolutely were mint or nm. Parents tossed my collection after I joined the Army. Dumbfucks. Oh right, there's an an actual post for this thread: Fuck the reserve list, print it into the ground. WoTC isn't making money off the secondary market anyway. Most the shit isn't legal in any other formats anyone cares about, and older printings might take a hit in the pocketbook, but given that EDH players like to bling their decks out, older and alternate printings won't completely shit the bed. Either that, or just get it over with and ban the whole lot of 'em. A lot of that shit causes broken headaches in the format anyway.


BrocoLee

There's 2 reasons to proxy a card: 1. It's in the reserve list; or 2. It's not in the reserve list.


cubrey

Yes


Shut_It_Donny

10 kinds of people will get this.


bondzplz

Wheel was actually 20 bucks a couple years ago, buddy gave me one for my niv mizzet deck. Laughing all the way to the moon.


A_Maniac_Plan

I gave a friend a copy of Dockside Extortionist out of my precon, he's enjoyed it so far at least.


SUSavant

Most of my commander decks contained 2-3 reserved list cards. Removing them afforded me the opportunity to add some perfectly serviceable cards which never quite made the cut when competing against reserved list options.


IceDragon77

*reads first paragraph* *turns to stare at Daretti deck on my desk* *starts sweating*


B_H_Abbott-Motley

I love old cards because nostalgia & hate they're so expensive. Make proxies for expensive cards the norm & it's not a problem. Excluding the Reserved List from EDH ain't the answer.


LazerpawX7

Unfortunately proxies aren't always an answer depending on the situation. When I play with my friends at casual level decks they're fine with me using proxies....but I'd also never proxy cards as powerful as many of those on the RL. The problem comes in when I want to play at higher power in tournaments at my LGS, which is not allowed to accept decks with proxies. If WotC made it so using proxies was legal in tournaments it'd be a different story. Alternatively there could be tiers to tournaments, with higher tiers allowing less or no proxies while lower tiered tournaments could allow varying amounts of proxies. At least that's my idea for a solution.


scubahood86

That will never happen, and nothing like it will ever happen. WotC makes money selling cards, if you no longer need to buy cards to participate in sanctioned events they immediately lose their most lucrative form of revenue. WotC will NEVER allow proxies into sanctioned events for that fact alone. I doubt they'd make an exception for RL cards even if that would lead to increased player counts at tournaments.


LazerpawX7

Unfortunately you're probably right. But unfortunately that also means the vast majority of players will never touch legacy, vintage. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the harm in allowing proxies of reserve list cards in tournaments. Since these cards are never going to be printed again, that means they also will never again be a source of profit for WotC, so no revenue is lost allowing them to be proxied. However, there are things to be GAINED by allowing the RL cards to be proxied. Now players who never could afford to play legacy or vintage can now afford to build and play decks at tournaments. This means money for WotC from tournament entry fees and increased sale of the legacy and Vintage staples that are not on the RL.


Scarecrow1779

With WotC offering less and less tournament support over time, maybe we'll see some independent tournaments try this idea out.


PM_ME_PAJAMAS

Could you imagine THATS how mtg dies? WotC just stops having sanctioned play and the local scene let proxies in "to get players" and then people just stop buying legitimate cards?


Scarecrow1779

My hope is that anti-gambling law suits leading to being able to order every card for a set price online. Like all commons are $0.25 each, uncommons are $0.75 each, rares are $2 each, and mythics are $5 each. After all, if there's no price variation between the value of different rares and mythics, it's less likely that packs are called gambling. Probably not realistic, but I can dream.


PM_ME_PAJAMAS

I mean the biggest problem is they want the game pieces themselves to be value. Like EVERY other card game (even them!) has multiple bling versions. Like why can't we get fetchlands in precons but then full-art etched ones are like $200 each? Why did it take wotc so long to realise precons could be related to recent sets and not "need" bad versions of effects "to promote buying them", and promote people picking up precons to buy current product? Why couldnt MH2 have a fetchland in the land slot and like a 1/case chance of being bling? They have so many products, rarities, and stuff and seem like children when they can look at any other tcg to see how to better handle bling versions. (ffs Yugioh puts staple competitive cards in starter decks after a while and still has expensive versions of those cards)


TheNightAngel

They could at least allow the Gold border cards they've printed themselves.


Blank_Address_Lol

Yeah... but take the Solid Blue Dragonshields for example... They're not, you can see through them, and the gold-bordered cards have an entirely different back. Which you would absolutely see if it was on top of your deck, thereby impacting your decisions about when to shuffle with a fetch or use card-draw cards. Or whichever sleeves it was where you can see the reflection on one of the sides, on what the next card is or something.


B_H_Abbott-Motley

Yeah, that's fair & an issue. The LGS I was playing at before the pandemic doesn't allow proxies of cards you don't own for EDH tournaments. LGS tournaments for prizes are particular kind of cEDH. Note that most of the cards on the RL aren't very powerful. \[\[Dwarven Pony\]\] of all things is RL. If you want to exclude expensive cards or high-power cards, do that. Don't randomly hit things like \[\[Unfulfilled Desires\]\] & \[\[Asmira, Holy Avenger\]\].


MTGCardFetcher

[Dwarven Pony](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/3/53a3019f-0b27-4ba3-be4c-73ed50eb9514.jpg?1562587286) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dwarven%20Pony) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hml/70/dwarven-pony?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/53a3019f-0b27-4ba3-be4c-73ed50eb9514?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dwarven-pony) [Unfulfilled Desires](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/3/3389d6c7-2a8a-48d6-a09d-aa195d830576.jpg?1587912758) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unfulfilled%20Desires) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/285/unfulfilled-desires?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3389d6c7-2a8a-48d6-a09d-aa195d830576?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/unfulfilled-desires) [Asmira, Holy Avenger](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/7/a7d64600-84fc-42a5-a6a6-b26f98fac0a4.jpg?1562720964) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Asmira%2C%20Holy%20Avenger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/256/asmira-holy-avenger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7d64600-84fc-42a5-a6a6-b26f98fac0a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/asmira-holy-avenger) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Bass294

This is my problem as well. But people always just say oh "its not an official format who cares!"


MTGO_Duderino

Commander is not a sanctioned tournament format. Wizards doesn't control it. If your LGS is running some kind of commander tournament and requiring real cards, talk to the store manager.


Untypeenslip

I'm a new player to EDH (been playing a year and a half), and I do not own any RL cards. One of the players in my pod does and he plays them (gilded drake, wheel, grim monolith mostly), and we are open to proxies, so I play with one or two RL proxy cards I have, and honestly it improved our games by a TON. Yes, my decks are much stronger, and I can stand up to him better. I personnally am thinking about swapping most of my cards above 50 bucks to proxies, and have a "proof" binder that contains most of them in case someone wants me to justify using proxies. I am always very very wary when I'm shuffling a deck with cards worth more than 100 dollars, even double sleeved.


[deleted]

Take a picture of your binder with your ID (info blocked out) and use that as proof. Do not ever carry a binder full of $$. You will get robbed 1000% of the time. As soon as people know they will mark you and it might not be the next day or month, but eventually it will happen. Always happens.


NemoNowAndAlways

Glad I moved to a country (Japan) where this is a non-issue. As an American, I find it sad reading stories of people having their cards stolen. Like, I'm not a huge weeaboo either as I can state that Japan has a host of its own problems, but violence and theft aren't included. Wtf is wrong with Western people, I have no idea :(


[deleted]

The issue is money and the gap between the lower middle and upper classes that lead to these social issues.


Untypeenslip

Sound advice, thanks


[deleted]

You're welcome. Many years ago I was aware of a group of guys who would travel to large events and target players with back packs. They would arrive separately. You would never know they were working together, one guy would scout for $$$ and act as a decoy - they other guy would be the "new opponent" who needed rules examined and the other guy would wait for the right moment to grab the bag. It was like Oceans 11 of robbing people of their cards. They would even scout and make notes on people's cars and pretty sure they broke into cards. It came out because one guy got caught and ratted out the whole operation


CanuhkGaming

You probably don't even need a proof binder, just proxy to your hearts content. Nobody is going to be angry that you aren't spending hundreds of extra dollars to play cards with them, especially if you play with your friends.


PM_ME_PAJAMAS

Some people actually do, though. In my experience they 100% are those that got them early or spend all their money on mtg and want to lord it over you because they have nothing else going on. Though I have also never met someone that both owned 10+ alpha duals AND wanted the RL intact....


AigisAegis

These people are a dying breed. Proxies are more and more supported. Five years ago they would have been a contentious issue on /r/EDH and would likely come down to "I guess you can proxy them if you own them maybe"; these days, it's rare to find anyone here who doesn't say "yeah proxy whatever you want". That mentality is only becoming more and more widespread.


PM_ME_PAJAMAS

Which is itself another terrible red flag. Like if the most popular way to play mtg says "fuck the legit cards theyre too expensive" then what happens to the game?


maestro_di_cavolo

Perhaps wizards eventually gets wind of it, sees a future where nobody buys legit cards, and breaks the reserve list. Sure would be nice


mtg92025

We also allow proxy and I have no problems with them. As long as they are trying to sell them as authentic on eBay. I recently bought another Wheel and it was fake. eBay backed me up and I was refunded. I provided conclusive evidence the cars was fake and with protection from eBay, PayPal, and my credit card I feel safe buying again.


dreamlike3

All my proxies are from MPC and have a different back so its obvious once you unsleeve them that they're not a legit version but if double sleeved they look just fine and no different at a casual glance unless you get right up close to inspect it.


[deleted]

I sold out of my entire collection 2 years ago. Including about 100 RL cards my uncle gave me from back in the day. Multiple Wheels, 6 dual lands, a ton of original tutors, and many other cards that were $50+ at the time. The prices of these cards today make me want to kick myself for selling them then, since most of them are TRIPLE their value or MORE. That being said, I know that the RL cards help to solidify MTG as a “collectible” card game, but honestly, fuck it. They are pieces of cardboard that are worth 0.05 to 0.30 USD a piece as far as I’m concerned. I recently got back into commander with a couple of the newer precons and that’s really the only way I’ll buy new cards (with the occasional $10 worth of cards from TCGPlayer). The price of these tiny pieces of cardboard keep a TON of players out of the game. I personally believe that getting rid of the RL would be GREAT for new players, casual players, and active PLAYERS. Sure, it would screw over collectors. I get it. I just don’t care for the way things are. Just my opinion.


scubahood86

Who cares if it screws collectors. Nothing collectible is ever guaranteed to increase in value, all "investing" carries risk. If anyone decided to invest 10 Grand into magic cards because they thought that was a good idea and they lose all their money in reprints am I supposed to feel bad? Because I won't.


[deleted]

I agree with your points, they are all valid. I would even argue that actively investing in magic cards is foolish as wizards could, at any point, go back on their word and abolish the reserve list. I would never trust a greedy corporation enough to “invest” into their product.


Gratrunka

If it makes you feel any better, I sold a Sliver Queen only 8 months ago for $100, it's now like $500ish The price of the Reserved list is extremely volatile, and you could never predict what happened, even on a month to month basis, not to mention years.


HydroStaticSkeletor

Yet another argument for why we as a community should all get really cool about proxying anything and everything on the RL real fucking quick. Because when WotC/Hasbro asks themselves "at what point does the cost of collectors, speculators/investors/profiteers being served above all else, even at the expense of the games and players, become too much?"......it seems like it won't be until they have no other levers to pull on their money machine. So fuck em', proxy it.


TheKnerdKnightzz

As unpopular an opinion as it is but eventually the RL will get abolished or at least shortened to Black Lotus. Eventually wotc will realise how negative the RL is for the vast majority of players due to the limited amount of RL actual cards vs total player base. Second point about the RL is it doesn't actually do much to protect the value of cards. Birds of paradise is 13 us dollars for a mystery booster printing, an og alpha birds of paradise is about 5000 us dollars (using prices on scryfall.com). Shivan dragon m20 printing costs 0.12 usd an og costs 2899 usd.


chearn2

Interesting idea. What makes you think this? I think instead they're going to continue to ignore the Reserved List cards until they're as much an urban legend to most players as the moxen are. Or continue to print as close to replacements as they feel comfortable with. Example: Jeweled Lotus. I do think they consider bringing all legendary creatures off the RL though.


That_guy1425

Simply due to collectability and preference of players with disposable income. Alpha is the OG magic set, like other people finding first print runs of comics from the 60s. Also, due to age, there are less old ones in good condition, so they usually trend up anyway. Oh abolishing the reserve list? Simply put they like to make money and this is a host of cards that people would love to buy even if they put them in a double mythic uber set at 600's a box. And theres no legal standing on companies changing a policy that they have changed before.


MirandaSanFrancisco

I think the reason they haven’t, and for the time won’t, abolish the RL is they simply don’t need to. They’re making record profits now, why take the risk? I don’t even mean legal, I don’t think it’s a legal risk, but a risk that it’s received negatively by consumers and hurts profits.


chearn2

Fair argument. Now, neither of us really have any actual data on what our RL ideas would do to the game so we're just guessing at best.


Beehay

I'd like to point out another key factor. Money. WOTC (Ha$bro mostly) loves money. Why wouldn't they unban some of the EDH staples in a set or two and make that Double Masters/Modern Horizons 2 money?


chearn2

They certainly could! And that product would sell super amazingly. But, recent reprint policy has really shaken the collector side of things and the RL boom is partially because you can't really "invest" in Ugin anymore because: 1) Could see reprints multiple times in a year. 2) Super collector's edition printings. So the RL is the only safe place for a decently sized, money having individuals. Shake their faith too much and who knows what happens. Now, I definitely could see EDH staples that make decks work coming off the list and being reprinted. But not things like dual lands. At least not until the game has become a sinking ship.


emillang1000

I think the RL is going to sit at Power, Library of Alexandria, Shahrazad, and a handful of other iconic, ultra-expensive cards that aren't used in anything but Vintage. At the very least, the RL needs to excise Duals, Mox Diamond, Cradle, etc., that are used heavily in EDH and Legacy.


TheNightAngel

Timetwister is power 9 and commander legal.


snappyj

I think they'll get rid of it, but it will be purely a financial decision when they realize how much money they can charge for a box of "Vintage Masters" cards, or whatever


melonstapler

As much as I wish it would happen, the ONLY way this could happen is if magic lost all popularity and those cards lost their value on their own. The fact that so many people want to reserved list abolished proves this won’t happen. Clearly a LOT of people care a LOT about this game and there is no indication that will change in our life time. Idk, maybe the generation after the zoomers hates mtg and doesn’t bother collecting them and the old fart millennials like me start to die off. They could freely print those cards then since no one would care. Except if no one cares there is no reason to reprint them. Magic the Gathering will die before the reserved list does.


TheKnerdKnightzz

The problem with lots of people caring about mtg is the vast majority can't own reserve list cards. There's very limited printings of the RL cards so it is almost impossible that the 19 million commander players can all have 1 reserve list card in their deck (estimated numver of physical real reserve list cards is 10 million). There are about 38 million magic players right now. As this goes up the opportunity cost of not reprinting these cards will make wotc decide to reprint them. There aren't any actual legal options for players to prevent wotc altering the reserve list because they've done it before.


Sephyrias

>I just know that for me, personally, the cost of playing with reserved list cards is getting too rich for my blood. Same. Made a similar argument [a year ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/c05rso/being_uncomfortable_with_the_high_prices), got downvoted to oblivion for it. Times change I guess.


SUSavant

Eh, mine was more about Reserved List cards specifically, not high powered staples in general. I do agree with you though. Times change. If you told me last year I'd be pulling \[\[Gilded Drake\]\] and \[\[Grim Monolith\]\] from my \[\[Brago\]\] deck, I would've said you were crazy! I don't like the idea of someone wanting to model their deck after mine, but being unable to afford 3% of the cards without having to spend $800+ dollars. Some people only want to play with the real cards they own, which makes the reserved list a barrier.


Sephyrias

>Eh, mine was more about Reserved List cards specifically, not high powered staples in general. The thing is that so many non-reserved list cards are almost equivalent in price to a large number of reserved list cards. [[Palinchron]] is sitting at $100. [[Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre]] is at $70. Not much of a difference.


MTGCardFetcher

[Palinchron](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/f/ef772879-44aa-428d-8c12-50d38f8bac80.jpg?1562943097) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Palinchron) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/86/palinchron?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ef772879-44aa-428d-8c12-50d38f8bac80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/palinchron) [Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/f/ffe0f77f-5092-4372-83fb-269dfb11f9b5.jpg?1559959223) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ulamog%2C%20the%20Infinite%20Gyre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/7/ulamog-the-infinite-gyre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ffe0f77f-5092-4372-83fb-269dfb11f9b5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ulamog-the-infinite-gyre) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[Gilded Drake](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/d/8de3fdae-cc2c-4a14-b15b-4fe1a983dfbf.jpg?1562924943) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gilded%20Drake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/76/gilded-drake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8de3fdae-cc2c-4a14-b15b-4fe1a983dfbf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gilded-drake) [Grim Monolith](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/d/9ddc9fe1-17c8-4e1d-aeb8-c4214e881280.jpg?1562863767) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grim%20Monolith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ulg/126/grim-monolith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ddc9fe1-17c8-4e1d-aeb8-c4214e881280?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grim-monolith) [Brago](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/a/0ac3fb08-741a-49e5-9fae-b26819677d24.jpg?1620530614) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=brago%2C%20king%20eternal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/82/brago-king-eternal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ac3fb08-741a-49e5-9fae-b26819677d24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/brago-king-eternal) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


TokensGinchos

On the contrary, I'm proxing my reserveds so I can use multiples


TheCrimsonChariot

I have found myself setting a limit on how expensive cards I will get from WotC to 100$ maximum if the card is something I want for collection/to use in a deck, but affer the first copy, I will start proxying the rest. Started doing proxies this month and it has been a blast because I can complete decks much faster and not spend a butload of cash on stuff I will need bulk of


cynicalrage69

Reprints don’t crash og printings tbh we see it time and time again, look at og [[royal assassin]] and tell me it’s reprints crashed it’s old printings?


F0eniX

How much is alpha [[shivan dragon]]? 400? A new one? $0.10


cynicalrage69

Demonic tutor was reprinted in ultimate masters back in December 2018 and look how it has increased in price well above the 50+ dollars the cheap printing is, in truth demonic tutor alpha is worth more now than before it’s printing [Demonic tutor price history](https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Limited+Edition+Alpha/Demonic+Tutor#paper)


MTGCardFetcher

[shivan dragon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/2/227cf1b5-f85b-41fe-be98-66e383652039.jpg?1592518393) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shivan%20dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/335/shivan-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/227cf1b5-f85b-41fe-be98-66e383652039?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shivan-dragon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


cynicalrage69

Yes but will a collector be interested in the 10 cent card or the 400 dollar piece of magic history? I mean look at alt arts? They’re prices demonstrate the value of alternative/older arts and how collecting is not impacted greatly by cheaper reprints. I mean look at expensive basic lands which are way above 10 cents a basic usually is


Asphalt4

Isnt that the point of his post? Collectors can collect the rare, sought after versions while players can grab cheap copies and play the game.


MTGCardFetcher

[royal assassin](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/1/d12e8109-8215-46b5-a0af-fe7e4b6b10b0.jpg?1562660714) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=royal%20assassin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m12/105/royal-assassin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d12e8109-8215-46b5-a0af-fe7e4b6b10b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/royal-assassin) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Lithl

>At what point does the value of a game piece prevent you from playing with it? I have: 1 deck with 2ED Timetwister, 3 decks with Mishra's Workshop, 1 deck with Candelabra of Tawnos, 1 deck with G10 Wheel of Fortune, 1 deck with Drop of Honey (signed by the artist), 6 decks (I think?) with Gaea's Cradle, 1 deck with Nether Void, 1 deck with Eureka, 2 decks with 3ED Volcanic Island, 4 decks with V10 Mox Diamond, 2 decks with 3ED Tropical Island, 1 deck with STH Mox Diamond. That's from the first page of Scryfall, searching for Commander-legal RL cards sorting by TCGPlayer price and including all prints. (List doesn't include cards which don't have a TCGPlayer price, so for example 2ED Timetwister is the most expensive shown despite LEA and LEB Timetwister being worth more.) None of those cards stop me from playing the decks they're in. I bought the cards so that I could play them, not as an investment. It's true they've pretty much all gone up in price significantly since I bought them, of course; I paid $2200 for my Timetwister which is now over $9000, I paid $350, $400, and $450 for my Workshops which are are now over $3000, etc. But I don't stress over it because they're doing what I bought them to do. Maybe I never buy another Workshop, but I'll continue using the ones I own until I decide to quit the game entirely, if that ever happens at all. (Or they get banned, unlikely as it may be.)


Draconoel

I'd be all for banning the RL cards from EDH due to their scarcity alone without even considering how much they cost, but it pains me to think that some silly cards like [[Wall of Kelp]] are pretty useful for very specific decks and these decks would suffer an undeserved blow. I play 100 permanents [[Arcades]] and it's a fun silly deck and probably my weakest already and would be even weaker without Wall of Kelp(the only RL card I own)...


StickyEntree

nah, I'll always play with them. My duals, rocks, etc. - they're cards, and they're meant to be played. However, I don't care if anyone proxies. In fact, I encourage it, I would rather play against the best version of your deck, instead of Mox Tantalite.


metroidfood

I think power level is more important than reserved list/price. This is why I'm 100% okay with proxies, as long as everyone is on a somewhat even foot.


Ropes4u

Proxies are 27 cents


Alon945

Get proxies of all the reserved cards you have and use them in their stead. Just check with your playgroup


hsl164

You can pry my [[Hatred]], my [[Palinchron]], and my [[Ertai, Wizard Adept]] from my cold, dead hands.


Matthew363

Abolish the reserved list and print the cards again but just not in bulk, the price drops and becomes more accessible to new players while also not swamping the format because they're still in a decently low supply Personally if you have a card on the reserved list in your deck, that's fine, as long as your not pulling up to a casual power 4-5 game with a wheel of fortune and half the remaining reserved list then I feel it's pretty fair game to run them


Frogsplosion

> as your not pulling up to a casual power 4-5 game with a wheel of fortune this is kind of a terrible example, because wheel frankly doesn't set the world on fire unless you are explicitly using it with something like hullbreacher to deny draw, by itself wheel really isn't that impressive and often benefits your opponents.


TokensGinchos

Wheel is not that different than windfall and it is one buck tho.


mtg92025

Agreed.


kilian148

Do you mean windfall? I dont know any card with the name windmill, that is a wheel.


TokensGinchos

Sorry i don't know the English names for older cards very well haha. Yeah I meant windfall


kilian148

No problem, im not an english native so i know your struggle :) i was secretly hoping to get a new wheel


TokensGinchos

Now I want a windmill blue wheel


crambaza

If the reserve list is abolished, it won't lead to mass printings and price drops, but instead it will lead to "Secret Lair - Reserved list edition", and they will be sold at a premium.


PotPumper43

The reserve list will never be revised or ended. They print money now without touching it. Prepare for years of RL analogues such as Jeweled Lotus - infinite design space.


SUSavant

If the Reserved List is ever abolished, that should be a red flag that the game is dying. As long as Magic is profitable for Hasbro, they have no reason to risk removing the reserved list.


Quarreltine

Not even a sign that it's dying. Just that their growth expectations aren't being met.


Snarwin

Plus, the reserve list doesn't apply to digital cards, which makes the cards on it a potential unique selling point for digital Magic.


johnnythexxxiv

Not only that, but [[Garth]] has opened up the design space of "Reserved List can be cast as tokens"


MTGCardFetcher

[Garth](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/e/cebd9062-a702-4f30-bba4-c2531e5ca5cd.jpg?1562822958) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Warmth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/6ed/52/warmth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cebd9062-a702-4f30-bba4-c2531e5ca5cd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/warmth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


sauron3579

I completely understand that you don’t want to play with expensive cards out of fear of damaging them. However, rather than no longer playing with the cards, you can just proxy them *and encourage other people you play with to proxy*. I don’t know if you have a playgroup, are at a LGS, or whatever, but by encouraging proxies, you build access to these cards despite them being on the RL. That doesn’t mean you have to play with them. It’s all about building to desired power level. But they should remain on the table.


chearn2

There is no point in which I'd remove a card based on financial value. Only power level.


the_stalking_walrus

Yeah, OP is just here for karma whoring and virtue signaling.


SUSavant

By all means, jam your Alpha \[\[Timetwister\]\] into your commander deck. Not saying that those who eschew reserved list cards are somehow better. ​ I'm more upset that the secondary market is telling me I'd be a fool to risk damaging a $300 card. WotC refusing to ever reprint reserved list cards tells me that they should be considered collectors items first and game pieces a far distant second.


MTGCardFetcher

[Timetwister](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/b/fbee1e10-0b8c-44ea-b0e5-44cdd0bfcd76.jpg?1614638835) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Timetwister) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/3/timetwister?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbee1e10-0b8c-44ea-b0e5-44cdd0bfcd76?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/timetwister) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


mtg92025

I just started Magic again and play EDH. I have steadily been scoping up RL cards as I can afford them. I don’t see a problem with them or playing them. Some are expensive and some are not. I think it’s a good idea for newer players to understand that these cards are valuable and retain actual cash value. Like a emergency fund that you can play with. Currently have Sliver Queen, NM; Revised WoF, NM; Eladamri Lord of the Leaves, NM, and just got a Revised Bayou, NM. I saved up and did my research for the cards, shopped around and got the best condition I could afford. I understand many are out of reach due to budget but teaching new players about Magic history and the RL is a god thing. Modern cards do not retain the same cash value of RL cards and in fact most often are printed again reducing prices. Also because they only seem to increase in value the best time to buy is always now. I started playing Magic around Revised and quit when I joined the Military. After I got out and my son become of age I started plying after he started collecting Pokémon. So I started to teach him about Magic and RL cards. He now has a Dragon, Human, Vampire, and +1/+1 counter decks and we play every Friday. Added: I also taught my son and play group how to authenticate Magic cards.


Quarreltine

> Some are expensive and some are not But if you checked a year ago you'd find that many weren't nearly the price they are now. Nullrod, for example, is worth like 10 times as much what it was two years ago. If these trends continue there won't be affordable RL options soon.


Legionnaire11

Remember when the Commander Spell book started on Discord and now it's a pretty big thing and a great resource for finding combos when deck building? What we need is a Channel/Site that lists alternatives to high priced cards. For examples, Tier 1 Card X costs $200... But you could functionally substitute Tier 2 Card Y with minimal dropoff in performance, or Tier 3 Card Z for $3 with a slight drawback, even Tier 4 Cards A, B or C for 10¢ basically listing which cards do the same thing at different price points.


scubahood86

The problem is most RL cards are weird and don't have functional variants. [[Volrath's shapeshifter]] comes to mind first, it's not expensive (for now) but nothing else does quite the same thing. Same with [[sands of time]] and other weird stuff. They've tried to print fixed versions of the expensive cards, like [[growing rites of itlimoc]] but all that does is give decks a second copy of X and increase the price of the new one.


stenti36

The issue isn't with reserved list cards. The issue is with high value reserved list cards. No one cares about \[\[Ice Cauldron\]\] (my personal favorite card). Now that we have narrowed down what we are talking about, the highest majority of decks don't require the reserved list cards in any fashion, especially in high of the newer cards being printed. In the realms where the reserved list cards are required to compete (cEDH), the community is so pro-proxy, that you don't need to own the card at all. \>with no chance of a reprint, it can hardly be considered a game piece at that point. It's an investment. The game itself is modeled to be a collectible card game. Collectibles are investments.


SUSavant

Ah, but how many buyouts have their been in recent months? I'm avoiding any and all reserved list cards. After cutting a $350 \[\[Gilded Drake\]\] from Brago, I could've replaced it with a $5 \[\[Tidal Control\]\]. But because they're both on the reserved list, I'm not playing either of them. Sure, Tidal Control is only $5 now, but being on the reserved list means the price is unlikely to ever go down. I do agree that high powered reserved list cards are where the real money's made. It's true that not every deck needs a certain reserved list card in order to function... unless it's a commander. \[\[Rasputin Dreamweaver\]\] was my first commander deck. I liked the card so much, I bought five copies of it in 2011 when it was a $5 card. I sold off the extra copies a couple years later when the price hit $50. Today? It'll cost you $500 for a single copy. Lol.


MTGCardFetcher

[Gilded Drake](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/d/8de3fdae-cc2c-4a14-b15b-4fe1a983dfbf.jpg?1562924943) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gilded%20Drake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/76/gilded-drake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8de3fdae-cc2c-4a14-b15b-4fe1a983dfbf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gilded-drake) [Tidal Control](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/b/cb9a7b7d-3d37-4bb6-ab48-1fec2bfb4fdc.jpg?1562770174) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tidal%20Control) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/all/40/tidal-control?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb9a7b7d-3d37-4bb6-ab48-1fec2bfb4fdc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tidal-control) [Rasputin Dreamweaver](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/8/78418809-f048-4611-88cb-369f427d9c44.jpg?1562920261) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rasputin%20Dreamweaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/170/rasputin-dreamweaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78418809-f048-4611-88cb-369f427d9c44?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rasputin-dreamweaver) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Bass294

The problem lies in non-cedh local events at card stores which ban proxies, yet still have a lot of dedicated players shelling out 5k for their decks.


MTGCardFetcher

[Ice Cauldron](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/f/5fad0f0f-b302-4f97-9cbb-a66dbfc57bae.jpg?1562917545) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ice%20Cauldron) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/206/ice-cauldron?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5fad0f0f-b302-4f97-9cbb-a66dbfc57bae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ice-cauldron) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Crying_in_my_skin

Oh, I earned my set of duals and you're damn right I'm going to Misty Rainforest for my Underground Sea.


MGaVr4n

Time to farm some downvotes! The RL should never be abolished for the sake of commander. No paper format that sees regular play needs RL cards. Legacy and vintage are played mostly online, most of their tournaments are online, where the RL isn't an issue. Those few people who play actually good legacy decks irl do so in organized playgroups due to there being no organized event support. Because of this they can, and I imagine that most of them do, rule 0 proxy cards due to either being too poor, not wanting to damage their RL cards (completely reasonable) or just the inability to find some RL cards that they need. Abolishing the RL would only benefit commander, a casual non sanctioned "social format", which doesn't need those cards in the first place. People here bitch and whine about powerful cards all the time and cards costing above 20$. These are the same people who want the RL abolished because then RL cards will magically become affordable to them, the same people who can't afford cards above 20$. In conclusion, no, there is absolutely no reason to abolish the RL. If wotc started running regular sanctioned legacy events and the format suddenly exploded then maybe then abolishing it will be a possibility but doing so for commander? Lol ofc not


ReallyASliver

If the RC actually lived up to their ideals they would have banned all RL cards years ago. EDH is supposed to be an accessible format that anyone can play, but the RL is the antithesis of accessibility. People can proxy of course, but I can't imagine the RL coming out with a pro-proxy statement given how close they've become with Wizards (e.g. Sheldon writing articles talking about having drinks with Gavin Verhey). The RC can't do anything about the RL, all they can do is change the rules of the format. Some RL cards are presently affordable but the supply will never grow. EDH has and will grow rapidly.


cynicalrage69

I mean your suggestion also clashes with the philosophy of including sol ring; playing with powerful banned cards using singleton as justification for it. The point of edh is to make the most cards that don’t hurt brewing legal however as you know they shoot themselves in the foot often as multiple pillars of the format clash.


SUSavant

Any idea why \[\[Timetwister\]\] is the only power nine that's legal in commander?


F0eniX

It’s not broken enough to be banned on powerlevel. It would only be banned for it’s price, and doing so would only hurt more than it helps


MaxTheApathist

Twister is the only fair p9 card in edh, in fact you could argue it's even disadvantageous for the caster since they have to pay mana and everyone else refills their hands for free. Recall & time walk provide too much value for too small a cost, moxes ramp with no downside or restrictions, lotus is way too fast.


SUSavant

(laughs in \[\[Xyris\]\])


MTGCardFetcher

[Xyris](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/4/447db519-7825-4330-99e7-a2429e1f6b2e.jpg?1591234313) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=xyris%2C%20the%20writhing%20storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/18/xyris-the-writhing-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/447db519-7825-4330-99e7-a2429e1f6b2e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/xyris-the-writhing-storm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[Timetwister](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/b/fbee1e10-0b8c-44ea-b0e5-44cdd0bfcd76.jpg?1614638835) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Timetwister) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/3/timetwister?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbee1e10-0b8c-44ea-b0e5-44cdd0bfcd76?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/timetwister) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Break-Tall

>At what point does the value of a game piece prevent you from playing with it? When does it become exclusively a collectable? Never because I can always buy and play the cards that are not expensive.


alare

I play commander with my friends and a coworker. I had multiple proxies made of reserve list cards so we can use them in our decks. If it costs more than 5 bucks I'm not paying for a piece of cardboard. Decks without rl cards are at a significant disadvantage to those that have them so I make sure they're available to all of us. That being said I doubt any of us will ever play outside of our kitchen tables or the work truck as I know that a lot of places frown on proxies. Even though all of us could afford them why would we? We're there to have fun not flash how much money I can spend.


Akwagazod

So, the common argument I hear about (and that baffles me) this is that they would get sued out of existence if they removed the RL. This is obviously incorrect if you think about it for ten seconds. Removing the RL would essentially cost them up to two things: legal fees and a potential payout for lost value if they lose the suit. Legal fees is a definite but relatively small (probably at the absolute most like a couple million bring generous), losing the suit would be bigger but far less likely (with how out of control the secondary market is, that's many millions of "lost value" if they lose, definitely). Now, the kind of people with these cards who would sue Hasbro over it are rare, and most of them don't have a shitload of money. Those that DO have a shitload of money are probably most people who have that kind of money on the scale of a personally wealthy individual, not a corporation. A coalition of every pissed off collector and speculator forming a class action is still not going to have the kind of money Hasbro can throw at that suit to win it, and how much you're paying your lawyers demonstrably matters for big cases like this. On top of that, their argument isn't good? Like, I *understand* their logic, but that argument of "why are high graded AB Shivan Dragons THOUSANDS of dollars" basically torpedoes any logic they put out there. Your old ass AB cards and even RU stuff are objectively still worth money because they're incredibly scarce and remain every bit as collectible. So, between bad argument and worse legal team, the odds of this coalition of the world's shittiest humans would almost certainly lose this case. So now WotC just needs to make up the cost of their attorney's fees to make that worth it. Let's say hypothetically they need a profit of $2 million more than what they paid their lawyers to make worth it in their eyes. Let me ask you something, reader. Would you buy Secret Lair: Power Nine? Would you buy Secret Lair: Duals? Also, those groupings are both easily enough cards they could split them into two or three boxes each. (See Secret Lair: Shocks for reference there.) Let's say you hate Secret Lair on principle. Fair. I like the model personally but I recognize the flaws. How about a set done up like Strixhaven's archive, but every pack has a guaranteed fancy reprint off the Reserved List? Think that might sell decently well? "Eternal Masters 2: We Can Actually Print Important Eternal Format Pieces This Time Guys" sound appealing to anyone? Any ONE of these ideas would almost certainly trivialize not only their legal costs, but the cost of losing that case if they did. WotC is basically taking a gigantic room full of money and lighting on fire. Yes, WotC is being as insane in their business practices as Heath Ledger's joker.


Benefact09w

I always just order proxy versions from Etsy. I've made the conscious decision to never purchase a reserved list card. I don't want to be party to the investors and their schemes. Honestly, I prefer the Etsy versions for not involving ANY hint of finance or investment. And it goes to my personal goal to see a person work a McDonalds job and still be capable of making a Commander deck including Wheel of Fortune, Time Twister and Gaea's Cradle.


Atanar

I've always been an advocate of "straight up ban all reserve list cards". Sadly, a lot of people who actually have them get angered by that.


hillside126

> The reserved list is never going away Doubt.


MTGCardFetcher

[Wheel of Fortune](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/5/2597050f-6b1b-474e-aa16-33fd154628ca.jpg?1562902580) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wheel%20of%20Fortune) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/192/wheel-of-fortune?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2597050f-6b1b-474e-aa16-33fd154628ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wheel-of-fortune) [Memory Jar](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/0/60b70b7f-6f24-4c00-947a-b109f302205b.jpg?1562914598) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Memory%20Jar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/276/memory-jar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/60b70b7f-6f24-4c00-947a-b109f302205b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/memory-jar) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Quarreltine

Not too dissuade you from removing them (Hell it's the best reason to sell them now) but... >The reserved list is never going away With the profit targets MTG has to hit it seems to me that the reserved list will eventually go away. What does all that reprint equity do for WotC? With the reserved list, absolutely nothing. Without the reserved list however it's beyond lucrative.


andmtg

I did the same a few months ago.


NemoNowAndAlways

I also own some goodies (not as many as I'd like) and I've found that they're just a bit too powerful for my taste. Dropping a Palinchron, Metalworker, or Mind Over Matter at a casual table just feels bad, so most of mine are currently just sitting in a storage box.


bandswithnerds

The only Reserved List card I run is [[Tombstone Stairwell]]. They could so easily put it on a creature without the upkeep cost and it would be pretty harmless.


MTGCardFetcher

[Tombstone Stairwell](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/8/f8fe2f99-7ec2-490c-8ec3-aa2fb4680826.jpg?1562722862) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tombstone%20Stairwell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/149/tombstone-stairwell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8fe2f99-7ec2-490c-8ec3-aa2fb4680826?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tombstone-stairwell) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call