The Right don’t exactly have the smartest voters
By - Zmd2005
The idea of biological females fulfilling the societal roles of males, or vice versa, has been documented the world over for thousands of years, it ain't new.
Personally I think it is really interesting to learn of how many different ways societies have defined gender. One that always comes to mind is a non-binary system were pre- and post-menopause women were seen as being of different gender, so one’s gender literally changed as one got older.
The concept of "two spirits" is also native to North America, as far as I remember.
I was dumbfounded when I saw this argument. The singular 'they' is so commonly used that it crosses the border into self-parody to argue otherwise.
I have no issue with whatever pronouns anyone wants to use, but just to explain where it comes from...
Singular they is commonly used, but it was previously an expression of uncertainty. It was a stand in for he or she when you hadn't seen the person. It's now being used for a person you can see (and probably have an innate idea of whether that person is male or female).
Again, that's all gravy. But it is a different use. And a new one. It's actually not surprising at all that it might trip people up. And it doesn't help bridge that gap by being stubborn about understanding.
Like for me, this gender flexibility happened mostly in my thirties. I'm young enough that I'm not bothered by it, but old enough that it still feels odd at a very basic level. That's fine, I don't have such a high opinion of myself that I think something feeling odd to me matters one whit. But if I had a person in my immediate life that asked me to use they/them, it would probably be somewhat difficult for me. It would feel alien.
The beauty of youth is being capable of accepting change without much trouble. The folly of youth is assuming that's how it is for everyone else. Trust me, when you're older, the younger generations are going to do things or accept things that you will find weird. All you can really hope for is that you stay open minded enough to not be an ass about it.
Especially with things like email where you might see someone's name and it isn't clear what their gender is, so use of singular they has always been the method of dealing with that instead of making an assumption.
I have a naive question : can "you" be substituted for the singular "they" pronoun? Example: If "how are they?", or "what would they like for dessert?" is difficult for you say, it seems "How are you?" and "what would you like for dessert" seems like an acceptable solution.
of course, "you" is addressing the person directly and isn't making any assumptions about their gender identity.
Kinda like how "Partner" has become the accepted term for when referring to someone's significant other (particularly in the case were you dont know them well) due to Husband and Wife making assumptions about sexual preference. (or assumptions about the partner's gender identaty)
You isn't ~~a pronoun or~~ gendered, therefore there is no reason to substitute the use of the word you.
You isn't gendered, but it is a pronoun, as are I, me, my, we, us, our and many more
Yes, you are right, it is a second-person pronoun.
Not really but if anything the substitute would be “it.”
“Who is it” vs “who are you”
Just found an example scenario: Looking through a family scrapbook.
“Is this your sister?” “Yes it is.” The ‘this’ and ‘it’ relate to each other.
You could hear “Is she your sister?” and “Yes she is” as well. ‘She’ and ‘she’ obviously relate.
Normally you’d hear both at once though. “Is this...” “Yes she...”
Or you might even hear “Yes that’s her” which uses ‘that’ to recognize the person.
Ok this example doesn’t really use “you” but this is my understanding of a singular person without gender or name.
I imagine medieval gatekeepers asking plebs to state their business, “what business does it have,” type stuff.
I’m gay and I can guarantee you that having to identify yourself over and over is exhausting. There are times it’s necessary and there are times it’s pointless. Frankly if you care what pronouns people use with you, it’s seems like it’s your issue and your burden to constantly self identify. I’m pleased with myself if I can just remember your name.
The real dumb ones are the ones who get super mad and insist that they don't use pronouns.
Thon anyone? Nope? Ok
These comments do not pass the vibe check.
I understand that they/them is perfectly acceptable to use and identify with but I just dont understand why. Whats the point? Why do people want to be called they/them. I honestly dont see what difference it makes.
It is what they identify as. Think of it like this, you identify as either male or female, but there are people who refer to you as the opposite (male or female). If you are male, they call you she, if you are female, they call you he. It can be insulting and hurtful.
There is a difference between sex and gender. That is an entirely different discussion.
Because the English language has pronouns. Until that changes, gender is a topic and a personal preference.
>I hav xy cromosome
Prove it! You absolutely can be born with XX chromosomes, a penis, and testes.
So unless you have been genotyped you are just guessing.
We never actually meet these people in our regular lives.
There are many of “these people.” If you aren’t aware of them in your life it could either be that they avoid you or they just know to not discuss things like that with you.
you have met someone that felt hurt unless you called them "they"? somehow I doubt this.
But these people do. Just because it hasn't happened to you, doesn't mean it is not real.
But doesn't that imply that you are going to talk about them in the third person when they are not around?
Sometimes it comes across as "here are the words you'll need to talk about me later", when it is quite obvious that we'll forget about each other as soon as we aren't physically around each other anymore.
Maybe what I'm getting at is that pronouns are a terrible ice breaker.
"But doesn't that imply that you are going to talk about them in the third person when they are not around?"
I am not sure the point you are trying to make. If they are not around, you would refer to them in the third person, either by name or pronouns like "them", so I don't see your issue.
"when it is quite obvious that we'll forget about each other as soon as we aren't physically around each other anymore."
Do you lack object permanence?
"Maybe what I'm getting at is that pronouns are a terrible ice breaker."
When are pronouns an ice breaker?
> "When are pronouns an ice breaker?"
"Hi, my name is Nancy Graces Testicles, here are my pronouns. "
>Do you lack object permanence?
Nope, but some people just don't require me to care that they exist after we interact.
> If they are not around, you would refer to them in the third person,
That presumes that I would ever refer to them.
To be clear, i have no problem with pronouns, but there are probably appropriate places in conversation or interactions to introduce them as not to make an interaction immediately about you. That will probably evolve over time.
So your issue is with the 3 panel comic as opposed to the much larger issue it represents?
I'm pretty much just shitposting about social awkwardness and presumptuousness on a lazy Monday.
Got it, hope it is fulfilling for you.
It's funny, cause you think you're making a good point, but in reality you're just demonstrating that you live in a bubble and it's stifled your cultural competence.
There's also the possibility that non-binary people feel uncomfortable being themselves around you either because of the greater area you live in or specifically cause they think you are closeminded.
Me neither. If I knew someone who suddenly wanted to be called something like that I'd try my best to do it, but if it was more than one i would probably end up very confused and feel unable/inadequate to function in such complicated environment, that I'd probably have to find other friends. I would also personally feel i imposed myself a bit on others if i required them to use a pronoun like them/they/these or similar for me.
It's really not that complicated, he/she/they. If someone can call someone by the correct name, they can use the correct pronouns.
In danish it's not 3 it's closer to 5. Sorry I must be stupid but i do find it confusing. As far as I can see there are also 9 different ones listed on UWM.edu so it's not that easy.
So in Danish there's 5 pronouns and you're confused about 3?
No you either misunderstood on purpose or i didn't explain myself properly. There aren't just he,she,they. Also there are these in English: he, she, they, ve,xe,zie/ze, per, ey, and fay. I may have forgotten some. https://uwm.edu/lgbtrc/support/gender-pronouns/
Consider yourself educated.
Or I just misunderstood (which I did) and you don't have to be a condescending prick about it.
I am certainly in a progressive crowd but I have never heard anyone using something other than he/she/they. I am certainly not saying that people who use those other 6 pronouns or any others for that matter aren't out there but not in a concentration to warrant people getting their panties in a bunch. But really at the end of the day it's not complicated. Just call people what they want to be called.
Pot meet kettle. Take a look at yourself before calling other condescending. I said i must have not explained myself. It's sometimes tough to express the correct tone over text but you seem like you just want to be offended now. I'm done with you, but i still wish you a nice evening or day, wherever you are. But a tip for you in the future: don't assume people are out to get you, and don't take things so personally.
>misunderstood on purpose
Being a prick
>Consider yourself educated.
Condescending and being a prick.
I'm not offended, I'm not looking to be offended, and nothing I said conveyed that so it's weird that you would say that. I also don't think that you or anyone else is out to get me nor did I take anything personally. Nice job trying to use buzz words, cute.
I was merely responding that people should stop being so confused about pronouns but simple minded people like you, who would feel inadequate and be unable to function in such a "complicated environment", keep not understanding it.
It's kind of paradox. In western society we've been eliminating a lot of barriers between the genders these last hundred years or so and we've come to a place where in many situations it no longer matters what gender you are. Especially in the last 50 years many traditional gender stereotypes have been broken up and this they/them movement is going against that by making it all about not being either male or female and thereby making gender a far more deciding factor to themselves than it should be.
your opinion isn't based on anything and is pretty garbage -\_\_- particularly when the movement is extremely adamant of letting people just people regardless of what gender they identify as. -\_\_-
"Their" is singular version of "They".
Maybe I just never understood what the point of pronouns are. I'm all for lgbtq and all but what the point of this.
It’s how you define yourself.
Social experiment: have everyone around you, friends, family, workmates, use the opposite gender pronoun for you. Come back and tell us how you felt.
I’m gay. We do it sometimes. It’s no big deal and sometimes it’s illuminating. Or hilarious.
Why not just use 1 pronoun for everyone? Thats how it works in Finland...
In Mandarin Chinese he and she are homophones. In spoken speech you can’t tell the difference.
why can't we just let people socially define themselves? It's not like we are all exactly the same.
Trying to learn Finnish has been a fascinating journey in this regard. It was something that I found so interesting that I ended up sharing it with everyone who came too close, much to their annoyance, I'm sure.
I'd feel like a moron for imposing myself on so many people for a selfish reason.
Do you feel like you're being selfish and imposing on others when you ask them to call you by your name?
Is name and pronoun the same thing now?
The refusal to even attempt to call Muhammad Ali by his new name was done in provocation, we see people doing the same with pronouns all the time.
"I know you as Cassius Clay, and I am going to call you Cassius Clay."
"I am used to refering to you as he/him, and I am not going to change that."
I don't think it's the same. It's rude if you refuse to try no matter what, but it's way harder to remember to always use a different pronoun that an unusual name for me, and i am extremely bad at names. I'd imagine it's especially impossible if you are in circles where several people have unusual pronouns. It isn't about being a dick and not wanting to do it, it's just that it's not the same at all, but lats just say it is. I personally wouldn't impose on people to for example call me a very hard to pronounce or long hard to remember name because i felt like it. I respect that you think it's the same, i just don't feel that way. My name is pronounced vastly different in different languages, and i like some more than others but i never felt i had to make people pronounce it how it is originally pronounced. To me it would seem like i am being a dick for making it way harder for people to be around me.
Have you or anyone you have known gone by a shorter version of their full name?
Like, Tim instead of Timothy?
If someone calls you Timothy and you go by Tim, is it being a dick to ask the person to use "Tim"? Is it being a dick asking a person to not call you "Timmy"?
Most names have some form of shortening, and everyone was their preferred name and you probably get by pretty well with those.
If you get confused, i'm sure most people who have a different nickname will remind you, the same for those with preferred gendered pronouns. "They" is a good coverall for those situations, or even "Y'all"
You’d tell people “I have an experiment to find out how a fellow human feels” and you’d feel selfish? Ok.
Just for me, I want you to change a base speech pattern. Yea, that seems pretty selfish.
If “Just for me help me become a better person” is too much for your friends and family, I feel sorry for you.
What “they” are saying is. The use of the they/their pronoun is a valid reference to a single individual. Countering the author’s perspective of maga types who argue they refers to only a group of people and identifying male or female pronouns are somehow required. The author then shows them using their to reference a single individual, thus providing themselves wrong.
It’s not a particularly well done comic.
People being obsessed with labels is the new trick to cause conflict. Underpants+???=Profit
who's the aggressor in this conflict, the people who don't subscribe to gender norms, or the people who get mad at others for not subscribing to gender norms.
how about we just let individuals define themselves how they want? then the conflict go's away.
Even better. How about we explain the why and how of change rather than cast people who disagree or don’t understand as the opposition?
The person who apparently opens with "my pronouns are.." are the aggressor.
Ah, yes. The ol' "Hi! This is what I'd prefer you call me" aggression.
What is this obsession with people being 'mad' about incorrect pronouns? I know like half a dozen either trans or non-binary people, and the most I've seen is a polite reminder.
But this is the go-to argument whenever we reach this point. How about we start with you folks just TRYING to respect people's preferences, and \*then\* worry about people who are being assholes about folks not catching on quick enough.
If someone purposefully misgendereds someone or tells them to pick "he" or "she" like in the comic it is offensive. It's not confusing if someone tells you which pronouns they use. Also when did you choose your gender?
You can’t subscribe to gender, it’s just about genitals lol
Yes yes take your place amongst the pawns and go purchase goods pre selected for you by the label you’re lumped into because you’ve been tricked into thinking it matters. Advertisers need us to be categorized so their marketing works better. It’s Capitalism supreme. We’re all being sub-grouped by AI into advertising sectors we would kill each other over. All such sheep. Keep fighting the ‘good fight’ lol and buy!buy!buy! (Picture Bezos laughing on a yacht somewhere) wanna actually fight the powers that be, have no label. Be ‘insert name’ not ‘insert cause’. Baa!
Honestly I accept all sexualities but “non-binary” is fucking dumb. You’re either a he/she.
What about those with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS)? Or other intersex conditions? It’s actually not quite as scientifically clear cut as I once thought. I saw an episode of House about CAIS, and read up in it, went down the rabbit hole, and learned a lot. It’s really surprising compared to what I was raised being aware of as scientific fact. I’m glad I learned more.
I can’t remember most peoples names that I meet on a daily basis but if someone repeatedly tells me their name is Bob and I keep calling them Jim... I might be an asshole.
I would agree, if you're doing it intentionally.
That's all anyone is asking, try your best. If you make an honest mistake, no one is gonna yell at you. If you are an asshole about it and consistantly and purposely misgender them however...
Thank you! Sometimes people make honest mistakes. I tell servers or anyone who works behind a counter, thank you. Sometimes I say thank you, sir or ma'am. Sometimes I just say thank you. I don't want to be crucified because I made a mistake.
if they get mad at you for a mistake and it's your first encounter and you apologize and correct. Then they are the ass hole.
Not sure why you are being downvoted. It's a lot, and most of the time i
Don't get angry when you're corrected and then make an attempt (and apologize when you fuck up) and you're not going to have a problem.
As a cis man with plenty of friends who fall outside gender norms, This shit really isn't that hard as long as everyone in the room acts like fucking adults about it.
I would apologize and feel embarrassed.
I love it. I hadn't thought of "their" in the same context.
I identify as "OUR" comrades.....
“To whom does this bag belong?”
“Who left this bag here?”
Even if that’s true, which I doubt.. The time scale in which a word has been used incorrectly doesn’t suddenly make it correct. And while it’s true that languages evolve over time.. IF it was used that way 600 years ago clearly language evolved in a direction that no longer considers it accurate. Sorry, but the red hats are right.
And I’m not saying your wrong to want to identify as something else. But you should make up a new word for what you are. Don’t take established existing words and try to change the meaning. And then proceed to get upset at people who don’t acknowledge your definition. Or that have enough real problems to worry about not to not spend time focusing on the intricacies of your made up problems... Nobody worried about this kind of crap before grocery stores became ubiquitous.
who tf introduces themselves like this lol
Maybe someone who doesn't want to be misgendered
the industrial revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race